Reinvention, Purpose, and Possibility - Adventures in Advising

Retirement is not the end of the story. It is the plot twist. In this episode, Matt and Ryan sit down with the unforgettable Dr. Deborah Parsons to talk about career pivots, retirement realities, reinvention, and what it means to keep creating in every chapter of life. From police work to higher education leadership to children’s book author and illustrator, Deb shares a jam packed journey packed and a few wild stories along the way, including turning down Prince. Yes, that Prince. 🎙️✨

Together, they explore when it might be time for a change, how identity shifts after retirement, why it is never too late to try something new, and how our talents can follow us into unexpected places. 

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Transcript

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, hey everybody and all you advising adventurers out there, Matt and Ryan are back with another episode of the podcast, you know and love, and we are in a different recording environment as well, thanks to some technology issues that are always present in our lives. And so our guest is with us straight away. So I'm going to let Matt introduce our guest?

Matt Markin  
Well before we get to that episode, 175 has already happened where you already heard the bittersweet news that the adventures of advising podcast, the current form of the podcast, will be ending in January 2027 with episode 200 more news to share along the way. But hey, we have plenty of stories and adventures that we're going to be sharing, including this one today with the amazing Dr. Deborah Parsons, to kind of give a little back story how we got to this, Ryan and I, over the last few months, have been kind of chatting about retirement, not necessarily today, right now, but what's that going to look like? Should we be thinking about it? We like to talk about pop culture and advising and all that fun stuff. But then we started talking about adulting and 401 k's and 403 B's and what does our retirement look like? Social Security. Do we still continue after? When do we retire? All those fun questions that we thought, Well, should we talk about this. More Do other people have questions about this? And I was recently talking to Dr. Deborah Parsons, who is already retired, and we were having conversations about reinventing yourself. What do you do to keep busy? When Should people start thinking about stuff like that and not that this has given any expert advice. This is based off experience and probably ongoing conversations. And I said, Hey, why don't you come on the podcast? Because you've done some things after you've retired, including writing a children's book and illustrating a children's book. So I think this is going to be a fun conversation. Dr Deborah Parsons, welcome to Adventures in advising. 

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Thank you for having me.

Matt Markin  
And I guess I should say returning guests, because you were on one of the early, early episodes, a very short interview when I didn't know what I was doing. I still don't know. I still don't know. But before we dive into you know, the actual topic of this episode, Ryan, I'm going to ask pet wise, how many pets do you have?

Ryan Scheckel  
So we have two. They are miniature schnauzers. They are litter mates. I grew up in a two dog household, but they were outside dogs. And when my wife and I, you know, got married and we moved in, we didn't have any pets for a while, and then we had the opportunity to sort of adopt from within the family and take on one Miniature Schnauzer. And we had her for 13 of her 16 years and and when it was time for her to take the next step, as you might think of it, my wife was like, Don't let anyone convince us. You know, Christmas was coming up birthdays, like, we're not doing that. And so there was a three year window where we were pet lists at home. And I will say that there was some nice things about it, you know, just just the not their schedule or thinking, have we done this? What about that? But we had a friend who posted on Facebook a very cute picture of a miniature schnauzer. And my wife commented on that picture, and she said, Well, there are others. And so when we went to visit, there were only two. We took our kids, who were six and three at the time, and one of the kids liked one, and my wife liked the other. And she looked at me one time at one point and said, What if we take both of them, we'd have two dogs, because that's like normal for me. So our good friends and family members, Ruby and Jade, probably asleep right now at home.

Matt Markin  
So listeners were probably wondering why you started asking about pets. Because Dr Parsons, Deb, how many do you have currently?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Am I going to be turned in? I have 10 dogs, and they're all indoor dogs, and I have four cats, a bird and some fish. So I have quite the zoo, and so my whole day is spent on what their schedule is. When do they eat? When do they go out? When do they jump in the pool?

Matt Markin  
Was there ever a time that you had more than that? 

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
I did have 11 dogs. Set one time, but I said no more dogs, no more pets, because I'm older. So as they the last one, she died when she was 21 and you know, my husband always had a rule that I wasn't allowed to adopt anymore, especially if there was a person and a leash attached to the dog. So I'm trying not to accumulate anymore, but my heart is big.

Matt Markin  
Yes, yes, you're a dog whisperer. Yeah, pet whisperer here, so, but you know you've had several very different chapters in your life. You know you've been a police officer, faculty member. You were my professor, way back when, in one of the criminal justice classes, you've been assistant dean, Illustrator, writer, when you look back, you know, can you kind of talk about your journey, I guess, through all of that, and kind of what connects all those versions of yourself?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
You know that it's an interesting question, because they do seem very different, you know, different careers, different sort of trajectories. And you know, if we look at our parents and our grandparents, they sometimes had one job, you know, and with one company, and they were rewarded for loyalty. Nowadays, we change jobs like we change our underwear. And sometimes we change jobs more frequently, at least lately, but I think that I it was like when one door closed, I looked in a different direction, so it kind of it jumped around like I started off going to school for art, going to college for art, decided that I needed to make money, so I went into the job market. And then somewhere along the line, I sort of became interested in police work, and I saw these two ladies on some network, some channel, they said, Oh, women can be cops. I went, Oh, that's interesting. Well, I wasn't an American citizen at the time, so I had to, you have to be an American in order to carry a gun. So I had to wait and get my citizenship. I came over from Canada when I was really young, but I never did that, so I had to get that first. And while I did, I went back to college and took some criminal justice and then I got into the police I got hired and went into the police academy. So that's where, you know that trajectory. But it was, it was really tough. I was the only woman on a all male police department I ended up leaving there. I sued the Department for discrimination. I tell you all that, but that might be another podcast. But it was hard for me to get back into police work, because once you sue a department, they don't want you. So I was like, Oh no, what am I going to do? You know, because I had spent so much time trying to get into it, and I decided to go back to college. And so I I went back, and I saw a job opening for a dispatcher for the the community college. And I went in, and I was interviewed by a panel, and the chief was in there, and he said, Well, I've seen you've been a police officer. Why don't you want to do that? And I said, um, you know, I'd just be happy being a dispatcher. And he goes, come in tomorrow and I'll suit you up. And so 26 years later, I retired from being a community college police officer, community college policing is just like any other policing. You know, you have arrests, you have you have to keep a low profile, but when, until they need you. But while I was doing that, I was earning my degrees, my Bachelor's, my master's, and then finally, my doctorate, and my dad always said, What do you want to be? The best criminal your you can be, you know, because he didn't understand me majoring in criminology. But so then i i started as a faculty member, but I was still a police officer, so I was doing two careers at once, and I had my son when I was 40. My first my only child when I was 40. So I I graduated, and had my child the same year, and I started working when he was one. So again, 26-27 years later, I retired, and he's now 31 so it's been a journey, and that's not even to mention all the jobs that I had before I was a cop.

Matt Markin  
So well actually, before Ryan, before you go, I think you'll like this one because you're a music fan. Are you a fan of Prince? Mm. Me or Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,

Ryan Scheckel  
But we don't need to get into the why of it. But I, for anyone who's gonna say no to that question, I would really love to talk with them about it.

Matt Markin  
So Deb, do you mind sharing that story?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Okay, well, I worked at the fabulous forum in my 20s, and I went to a lot of concerts. I worked in the operations department, so I saw, I met a lot of famous people. Unfortunately, I was more interested in what the cops were doing. That's how I got interested in police work. But I really hobnobbed with a lot of these stars. Went to parties in Hollywood, went to all this stuff. And I'm not a big, what do you call it? Like, person that's, you know, in love with stars or anything. I just was there, but I went to a concert with the stage manager of Prince, and Prince sent a note to me and said, Would you like to go out and come over to my house, and you know, we were going to have a after party. I have to say that I had my hair in beads and I had leopard skin tight pants. I was only 110 pounds then, not now, but he invited me, and unfortunately, I was with the stage manager on that date, so I wasn't able to go. So I turned them down.

Ryan Scheckel  
Wow, rejected Prince. Everything would have been different, for sure.

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Probably for me too, probably. But I had lots of opportunities to date in that pool, but I really wasn't interested. It's not my, my cup of tea, sure.

Ryan Scheckel  
Yeah, well, the the limited experience I have is that it's exactly those sort of people who aren't interested, aren't attracted to it, that is the unique thing in their world. You know, taking their perspective and realizing that it's not all about the celebrity and the the fame that they're real people too.

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Is one of, yeah, and I've met some really very kind people and some very obnoxious ones as well. You know, I could list the ones that I just like Neil Diamond, oh my gosh, he was so rude. And some of these other people that you know, you just I'll tell you, Rod Stewart was very nice, and also, I don't think he photographs well, because he was really handsome in person. He had like Caribbean blue eyes, and he was very, very handsome and very nice down to earth. So there's so many tales that I could tell you. But as usual, I was okay. I was in on my lunch break. I would go out and sit in my parking lot and eat my sandwich or whatever, and I was taking a nap, and a cop knocked on my window and said, Are you okay? And you know, I was kind of startled. I said, Yeah, I'm just napping in the parking lot at the forum. And anyways, we got to talking. And a couple times he would come by, you know, and see me there, and we'd talk. And one time he got a nine, 920 7D call. And I went, Oh, what's that? What's the 920 7d and he says, a dead body. And I was hooked. I was like, I gotta be there. So after that, that's when I started working on becoming a cop. And I was in my I think I was like, 24-25 I became a cop when I was 28.

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the things, is recently saw a post about resumes, and, you know, we the resume is not a reflection of the life lived. You know, particularly because it's divided up and it's listed in a linear fashion. And as you've clearly illustrated, those things don't life doesn't happen like that. They happen concurrently, and one thing leads into another thing. But there are fairly significant shifts, you know, in at least what would be your CV and your your professional journey, and when we're thinking about this idea of, like the next transition in someone's professional life, whether it's into a new role, a new professional field, or like the idea of retirement, when people are thinking about that new start, or that big new shift, or whatever do you feel like they are maybe underestimating what they have previously experienced and what they're bringing with them into that next phase of life?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
I think absolutely, and I love this question, because I think people constantly think, well, I'm going to get a fresh start. Well, no, because you already bring your your damn self with you. You're going to bring yourself no matter where you go. I had a job in Los Angeles, and I applied for, well, I I actually got an opportunity to move up to Sacramento for the same. Company, and it was a trucking company, and they had given me my own location to to manage. And so I went up there, and I thought, oh, man, this is going to be great. I don't know anybody. Nobody knows me. I've got a fresh start. You know, I can be positive. I can be an extrovert. But I decided that, you know, this was going to be great, so I moved up there. I was so depressed. I didn't have the same support that I had with all my friends and family down in the LA area. Also, I realized that I brought my self with me and all the things that were wrong with me or I could proceed wrong with me. I brought those with me. So you can never really have, like a fresh start without bringing yourself with you. So you have to sort of maximize those things that are good about you. And as we'll go on with this interview, one of those things is I was always creative. I always brought creativity to whatever and humor. I always brought humor with me. So I always had that creative streak with me. And in every job that I've ever had, every you know, career trajectory, I've always had that creative path.

Matt Markin  
Let me ask you about like you know, because I know you from higher education, one as your student, and we're talking 2005 when I had a class with you, but then later on, when I became staff and then got into advising, then that's when I really got to know Deb Parsons, outside of being a professor, but now as an assistant dean, we served on various committees together. Always brought the humor. How did you know, like when you were getting towards the end of I think I might want to retire? Where did that come from? How did you know that was the right time?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Well, you know that was kind of on a personal level, because my husband, his health was declining, and I was spending more time when I'd be at work, I'd be worried about him. Then covid hit, and it was like it was a sec, what semi retirement, in a way, because I was home, the only thing we had was zoom to sort of connect with the outside world, and I was with my husband, and it was nice. And then when we came back to work, there was a lot of Do you remember this, Matt? There was a lot of restructuring, and also the advent of new technology, which they should have brought in before covid, but it was forced upon us with advising, at distant advising, all these different things that we did during covid was technical, technologically advanced, and it sort of pushed us in into the next century with that. So I think when, as far as when I wanted to retire, I had started to think about it, and I asked the dean, I said, you know, what am I going to do if We've restructured? And as Matt will tell you, we went to centralized advising when we had it amongst every college had their own advising team, and I was in charge of that advising team, and I said to the dean, what am I going to do when they restructure? And he told me, I think you're going to have to reinvent yourself. So he said, It'll be all right. It'll be fine, you know, but I kind of worried that I eventually have to go back into face to face teaching. Not that I didn't love that, but I had been an assistant dean for what, 10 years almost, and to me, that was the best time of my whole life. Was being an assistant dean was because I got to negotiate and mediate with students and faculty, and it was just a wonderful experience. So I would say that my decision to retire was more based on personal reasons, like spending more time with my husband and also the new technology and the restructuring, I decided I just didn't want I didn't have the desire, the motivation to learn all those things I did retire, and unfortunately, my husband passed away that first year, so we did get to spend some time together, but it was limited. And I hate to say this, but I was glad for covid, because we did get to spend those last couple years together.

Ryan Scheckel  
Yeah. I mean, there's all these things that are going to come out of that period of time that are going to be so unexpected. Number one, the way that everything rolled out, and the way everybody responded to it like we we had no allegory. I remember the first few times people would start talking about, you know, the. Last pandemic, and and that sort of stuff. And I was like, I mean, there was, you know, the the early 1900s you know, there wasn't a framework to operate from and, and so much that came out of it was unexpected, including those sort of, those bittersweet, sort of perspectives that we gain. But it sounds like, if someone is going to try to plan for or think about the retirement question that it you can't expect something to be the signal right, what's going to be the reason that retirement is right, or whatever. So when should people who work in higher education start thinking about the retirement question, even if there maybe isn't right now or whatever it sounds like, it might be good to have some conversations earlier than than later.

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Yeah, and I think this is not just a question for people in academia. I think it can't start early enough. And as far as planning for retirement. I'm one of those people that didn't plan for anything, so I'm not a good example of that, but I think people should start thinking about it as soon as, as soon as you get into a career that you that you love, and start saving towards retirement, because it's no joke. I mean, you know, the decision to retire planning of it, I remember two of my co workers, they went to a campus sponsored retirement planning event, and they both came back, and they were really discouraged. They said, Oh no, you know, we're never going to be able to afford to retire. And I looked at them knowing that they owned their houses, they had no debt, they had savings, and here I am with nothing. So I said, you know, I thought, Oh no, I, you know, I didn't plan this well, but thankfully, you know, academia is very forgiving in a lot of ways. You can, you can continue to work, but also I think that it's a good pension. And with my husband's and my he was a police officer, so with his pension, also, just to side note, my time on the police force, same retirement pension as academia, so it was all those service years combined. So I did pretty well, despite the fact that I flew by the seat of my pants. But I don't recommend anybody do that, because it's, it's very scary. I know a lot, I have a lot of friends that are still working. I mean, if look at me, I'm 72 years old, and there's people out there that are still working. So, you know, I feel like you need, it's never too early to start planning for your your retirement. And you guys, should, you know, be thinking about that too? I wish I had thought about it 20 years before I did, but I did already. So it worked out. I will

Matt Markin  
say I because you were talking about like, you know, pre covid, and then during covid, I do miss our chats in your office, pre covid with our Taco Bell, breakfast wraps, crunch wraps. Crunch wraps. Yes, there he goes. My bad, with some hot sauce. Yes. You know, you have people that change. You know, you kind of mentioned, you know, people changing jobs frequently. Some might be like, I'm super tired, or I'm fatigued, and I, you know, I need to now have a new job. So I'm getting nervous about, do I just stay in the same job? I think, from like, your experience and people you've known, or, you know, just your career trajectory and the different careers that you've had? Do you think there's a way to tell the difference between normal fatigue and there being a real signal that maybe it's time for a change?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
That's a, that's a really good question. And like I said, academia is very forgiving. I mean, how many of us know professors that have worked way past their death? They're like, you see them in the hallway, and you're going, like, that person's still here. So you know, you can I still teach. I teach two classes in the online criminal justice program, and I'm grateful that they let me do that, and it keeps me in touch with students, even though it's online, and I don't have to do that. It's not, in fact, it pushes me up into another tax bracket. So it's not necessarily a good thing, but I enjoy doing it. And I think a lot of faculty, they retire, and then they continue to teach after retirement, just like police officers, for some reason, when they retire, you know, everybody in policing usually retires around 55 and then. They get a security job. What the hell is that? Weren't you tired enough about, you know? So I think for you know, as your question is, when do you know? I think for me personally, it was that component that I already mentioned, which is the technology. I think technology, when I saw that, you know, chat, GPT and AI and all these things, and professors struggling with how to grade papers and what the assignment should be because students were, what they say, cheating, and all this business, I thought to myself, Oh, my God, hell no. I don't want to have to learn all that. And it's funny, I don't know if you remember Dr Coles, Matt. You remember Francis Coles. Anyway, she was a great colleague of mine. She retired shortly after I came on board, and I have breakfast with her periodically. And one time when we were transitioning from Blackboard to Canvas. I mentioned, I said, Oh, you know, we're, we're moving from Blackboard to Canvas. And she says, What's Blackboard? So that kind of, that was like a moment for me when I realized that technology moves really fast, and she didn't even know about, you know, PowerPoint notes or lectures or video streaming or things that we do with our students. She didn't have any idea about that. And I was like, Oh my God, what's happening in the future. So I decided I don't have the motivation to learn all this, and I really am not ready for it so, and I've actually changed my assignments in my online classes so that they don't do as much writing and it's more personally motivated, so they have to write from their heart rather than looking stuff up.

Ryan Scheckel  
Yeah, I in particular, as someone who teaches primarily online as well, the that move really helped me rethink, like, what was I trying to accomplish? You know, just because the technology shift or a new platform or whatever, and, you know, I think this conversation about thinking about next steps or retirement or whatever is getting at this, this bigger concept of having a sense of place and fit, and am I doing what I really should be doing? Am I accomplishing what I really want to be accomplishing? But from your point of view, is there such a thing as staying too long in a role or even in a field?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
There is because, you know, when we and especially in academic, academics, you know you, you love your discipline, you want to find out all about it. I, you know my area was policing, and also women in policing and women in crime, and I also teach justice in the media. So I'm very media. I mean, if you're teaching about media, there's something in the news every day, especially related to crime. But I was thinking, you know, just as if you were going to a doctor, you want your doctor to be cutting edge. You want them to know the latest material you want them to not be, you know, stuck in ancient times with regard to new innovations in whatever they're doing, you know, medically. So the same thing happened to me when I was thinking about it. Is, Am I really in line with what's going on out? You know, in criminal justice? Could I go back and teach and be relevant and be honestly know what's what's going on? Because I know it was no longer doing research in the area. I had been working in administration for 10 years. So I was kind of and I worked with students in all majors, so I wasn't really in that field anymore, and I didn't know whether I could jump back into it. So for me, it was like, okay to benefit my students. I really need to step away from from that kind of focus. And I think they they would benefit from newer faculty. So I think there is a time when when your time is up, if you're not willing to do it, if you're not willing to do the work. And I wasn't interested in doing that, to be honest.

Matt Markin  
For many people in the higher ed, they've been in it for many, many years, and maybe even their identity is wrapped around being in that career field and being in whether it's teaching, being advising, whatever it might be. What are your thoughts on individuals being in these like helping type professions, especially within higher ed? Do you think they get anything wrong? Of. About their own identity when they end up leaving that job or career?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
And that's a really good question, but I don't think it's limited to the helping professions. I think it's every profession that you you tend to identify with your title, with with your role, and I've looked into this because I was thinking of writing a book on retirement. So some of your questions are very relevant. The thing about identity is it's really it can be along gender lines. For example, men are more likely to identify with their careers, their job title and what they did, as you know, in their jobs, more than women, women, you know, there are successful women that really identify with their careers. However, women tend to throughout their lives, throughout their careers, they tend to continue their networks, continue their family responsibilities. They those networks and everything are still there when they move on to their you know, their retired life. But for men, a lot of men, they everything about them is about their jobs and so, you know, one of the things I would tell men is, you know, build those networks around you instead of always about work. And I also looked into the mortality rates. And men tend to have higher mortality rates after retirement, like sometimes two to three years after retirement, and women have long, long more longevity after retirement. So I think that, you know, it's, it's not just, it's not just men that have an identity. I think when you transition into retirement, you really need to, you do need to reinvent yourself, and you do, you know, I still have lunch and times out and social life with my colleagues like Matt, and we have a great time. But I realized they're working and I'm not, you know, I'm at home there. They still have that grind to go to work and everything. So life is different. And so you do have to realize that your identity does change, and you can either just go away and die or you can reinvent yourself. And I think that's the the key.

Ryan Scheckel  
Yeah, you mentioned the creativity and and the illustration and painting background that you had and that it was always with you through this process, but in particular this, this book and and that project, how did that become a part or what was it like for you to decide, yeah, this is what I'm going to do as part of my retirement life.

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Well, you know, just a quick story before that, when my husband passed away, I had, you know, I felt really lost, and I didn't know exactly what I was going to do. And I had always been artistic, and so I kind of made a promise to myself to paint every day and to to bring out my paints again and start painting. And I did that, and I've kept that promise for two years. I've painted every day, done something creative every day. Well, a partner, a police partner, my my buddy on the police force. We were partners throughout most of our time there. He had said that he knows this woman that wants an artist for her children's books that she's written, and would I be interested in that? And I said, Sure. And so we zoomed. We, you know, we talked on Zoom, and I did. I met with her and her literary agent, Lonnie Drake, and I signed a two book contract, and I did the illustrations. In fact, I think they were surprised at how fast I did them, because I did them like in a month. I did one book in a month. But I have to step back a minute, I also always had done cartoon characters and caricatures, cards and and little drawings for my friends family, and they always look forward to how they were going to be depicted in one of my cards. And, you know, because I pick out features or whatever, that expressions or things that are unique to each person. So I like doing that. And so one of the things I did was I, when I illustrated these I had. I'll show you the first book I did. I can't see if you can see that, but this was Helen malmad. She is the author, and I designed the cover and all the pictures inside, all the illustrations. And then the second book is. Nate, Kate and Tate full speed ahead, and I did this one. And so as I was doing those, and those took me a few months total, I decided, well, maybe I can author a book, because I had some creative ideas, and I sat down and I wrote the story in about two to three days, maybe refined it the third day. And called Lonnie, the literary agent, and said, you know, would you be willing to help me with this? And she said, Sure, you know. So then I did my own book, which is miles Carter can't sleep, so he counts sheep, and it's, oh, you've got yours too. Oh, thank you very much. But I The story is about a boy who lives with his or is visiting his grandparents, and he doesn't really know them well, but he can't sleep, and his grandma comes up and he says, she says, Oh, you know, if you count sheep, it'll make you really tired. And he goes, count the sheep. Why would I do that? You know what? What's that about? So when she goes to bed, he decides he's going to go off and find some sheep. And so he goes on this big adventure using different forms of transportation to get to the countryside to look for and count these sheep. And so he counts the sheep, and then he comes back. So it's an adventure both ways, and he sneaks back up into his bedroom. And so the ending is kind of a surprise, so I won't ruin it, but it was just something that kind of came to me. And I've also written now a second book, not of the same thing, but which is a children's book for kids that are reading chapter books, and it's called The Raven detectives, and it's about three three kids that solve a crime. So I've got that book written. I have to do the illustrations for that. So now I'm kind of on this path. But it's not that I'm just doing the books. I'm also doing paintings, portraits, portrait, pet portraits. I don't really like to take too many commissions, because you have to kind of get yourself into the the idea of what they want. And I haven't had any problems. Most people love what I've done, but you could get into where, oh, that doesn't look like them, or, you know, I really wanted it this way. And so that's commissions are harder. I think there's more freedom with with doing what I want to do,

Matt Markin  
yeah, and you are super talented and creative. And I'm not saying that, because I know you sometimes it's just, like, you just get inspired all of a sudden. Like, I just remember, you know, one time you I posted, like I used to. I don't, I don't really buy a lot of create, you know, weird looking socks anymore, but like, I would wear socks and then post a picture, which kind of sounds weird saying that out loud, but I remember that, yeah, and so I you just all said, are like, let me draw that. And yeah, I still have it, and you gifted that to me. Maybe we can kind of connect this, like creativity and being in administration, being an assistant dean, did your creativity background? Did that help you in being an administrator, that teaching didn't help you with?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
You know, I think this is also a very good question, and people can reflect on this for themselves, but a lot of work environments and jobs and careers, you have to have structure. You have to have foundation. You have to have discipline. That's very true with academia. There's policies you need to know. There's think, rules you have to follow. You have to have. They say, you know, oh, you've got academic freedom to do what you want, but you don't, don't do it. You actually have to be very careful with what you say, what you do. Well, I've never been careful with what I say, but I think you have to be very careful with being very structured in that with art, there's a lot of freedom now. There is still structure, and there's still foundation. You still need to know paints and art supplies and and the surface that you're putting that things on, and how to frame things and what to do. So there's still all those little technical details, but there's so much freedom in being able to create. And I think our I think it's natural, I think not just for me. I think people sort of suffer in those those tight environments if they can't express themselves. And I think that really helps to be able to be your own self in your job to the extent that you can. I think in police work, they would have fra. Found upon me expressing myself. I was able to use my art when I was a police officer, because I was able to sketch a suspect from the description by a victim, and this was before the identi kits that they have, you know, to help with that, but I was used a few times to do that, and it was very rewarding. So there's different ways you can bring it in, but definitely I and I was always creative with teaching, as you know, Matt, very creative, but I still had parameters, and so I think art has given me a taste of that freedom again.

Ryan Scheckel  
So what would you say, if someone's listening and they're like, I don't know, I think it might be too late to to, you know, be creative and free like that, or to try something that they haven't done before. What would you say to them for advice?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Well, I mean, just look at my history. I didn't get my PhD till I was 40, and I had my son when I was 40, so I think it's never too late, unless you want to be a stripper or something. Might be a little late, but you look at the history of people when they've started doing things like if you look at the history of some artists, they didn't start until they were in their 70s or 90s. And I'm talking, I'm not talking about necessarily financial success, which can come at any age, but it's also something that you know, if you're doing what you love, I think you can do it at any age. And I always tell my students, there is no perfect timing for anything. You could come in at, you know, 18 year olds right from high school and do terrible because you're not ready for college. You could come in at 50 and be a wonderful student and say, Oh, well, you know what? Who's going to hire me now? Well, I did have a student who, after she took criminal justice, she got her master's in social work, and at the age of, I think, 40 or 45 she started working for San Bernardino City, or the county social work, and she's been there ever since. And she didn't start until she was after 40 so I think that the lesson is that, you know students always want to be successful. In fact, if you talk to students, they think that they think they deserve to make you know 50,000 80,000 100,000 right off the bat, that comes from time. But you can be successful at any time in your life. You just have to do it.

Matt Markin  
And as we get to last couple questions, with our time remaining and maybe continuing this conversation with talking to students, how do you how can students recognize talents in themselves that maybe it doesn't fit neatly into a single major?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
That's a good question. People always said to me, you know, you got to show your talents. And the last time I did that, I got arrested. But I you know, I think students have a lot of talents. People have a lot of talents that they don't, that they haven't necessarily tapped into. So I think it's important to explore that. And I always tell students to talk to people in the profession they're interested in. One year I had my graduate class, their assignment was to go out and interview people in the criminal justice system, whether it be police officers, judges, lawyers, corrections officers, probation, parole. I said, go out and find people, interview them about their jobs. What got them interested in things like that? It was the best assignment they actually had, like an eye opening experience. And the following year, since that was so successful, the following year, I had them bring somebody with them to class and present, and they asked questions like you guys are doing to me, but it was in person, and so it was really a great experience. And I realized that people have a lot of interest, but it really is doing your due diligence and having advisors. I think having an advisor is very important to help you access the resources you need to find out what you want to do. I know students that take a class and all of a sudden they're they go in that direction, take another class. Oh, wait a minute, I want to do this. I've had one student who was a criminal justice major, and he said, I want to be a lawyer. And he found out when he was applying for law school that they really wanted political science or philosophy. So in his last year, we actually, this is when I was advising students, I actually was able to get the classes for him to finish a. Second major and to do a minor in philosophy in his remaining time, and now he's been an attorney for like, 15 years. So that's a success story. So sometimes it's about combining different majors. My son did physics and and chemistry and math. He combined those and went to a PhD program, and, you know, was successful there. I don't know, I don't have those brain cells to do those majors, but I think Get, get advising and do your due diligence in terms of looking at where that major would lead to what careers.

Ryan Scheckel  
Yeah, well, if you could sit down and advise your college age self, what would you say? Same advice to take that perspective, or do you think knowing who you are, you might have some other recommendations?

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
No, I do recommend that same thing. I, you know, I started off with art, and that was, of course, my passion. But you don't necessarily need to do your passion. I did have a student who was, I think she was failing, she couldn't pass statistics, and she was struggling. And I brought her into my office. I said, What do you want to do? And she said, Well, I want to sing. And I said, You're a criminal justice major. Why do you want to sing? And she said, Well, I want to sing. So I walked her over to the music department, and we, you know, we talked to the music person there, and she ended up changing majors, actually, and she came back a few years later and said she was teaching at a high school music at a high school, and she was very happy. So I think if I was going to tell my college self, I would say, you know, explore the same like I said in the previous question, explore different things ideas, but also go talk to the people that are doing what you want to do. I have one last piece of advice. Every job you do counts. I don't care if it's fast food, being a retail clerk or whatever it is, every job counts because you learn from everything you do. So I always say, do everything that you can, to be present while you're there. Actually be positive. Do what you're told. If you don't like your job, start looking for a job, another job while you're still employed. This business of quitting and moving to another job is not necessarily a good idea, and be careful what you do on the in your social media. You know, I had a police a guy that wanted to be a police officer, and they he had a picture on his on his Facebook, or whatever it was Snapchat, or where he was holding a gun and a bag of weed, and he never did get a job, because they can go back and see that, even though they said, Oh, I deleted that. No, you didn't. So I always tell people, be careful what you do in your background too, because they can see it and you want to keep your life pure and give yourself and as I learned in the police academy, give give 110% to every job. And I've always done that one, one job that I had, I worked at Aaron brothers art mark, and I was working, you know, retail, basically, but the manager, it was dead in the store, and the manager asked me if I would clean the windows, and I gotta clean the windows. I thought he was like, you know, you're a woman, clean the windows. So I was, like, insulted. I was like, 20 years old, insulted. Then I saw him out there cleaning the windows. I went, Oh God, the manager is cleaning the windows. And because I said I wouldn't, so I learned, you know, if he can do it, so can I? So I should do everything that I need to do while I'm at that job. I learned

Matt Markin  
a lot in the class back in 2005 but the one thing that always I've taken with me in advising is you told us in within criminal justice, you said any law, no matter what, is not always black and white, there's always a gray area. And that's something that I think applies in our profession as advisors when we're working with students. So whether it's Is there a course substitution? Can we waive something? Do you qualify for withdrawal? Do you have an extend to any circumstance? Can we add after the census date based off your your situation? There's always some sort of gray area, and we as advisors, kind of try to find, what can we do to help help our students, and maybe sort of bend the rules but not break them.

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
But well, you know, you said, you said that that's very important. I always considered myself a broker, a broker of services. The more network I had, the bigger network I had, the more people I could call to help the person that was in front of me.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Deborah Parsons, thank you so much for being on the podcast and chatting with us today.

Dr. Deborah Parsons  
Thank you, and it was really nice talking to you all. Two of you. Well, thank you.