Advising Forward: Connection, Community, and Change - Adventures in Advising

In this episode, Ryan Scheckel from Texas Tech University officially joins the podcast! 

03:53 - Ann Bingham with University of Southampton interviews UK Advising and Tutoring CEO David Grey, looking back at the 10-year anniversary of the UKAT conference, honoring a decade of impact, innovation, and inspiration. 

16:21 - Matt Markin facilitates a panel discussion with Ryan Scheckel, Texas Tech University; Iris Burks, Maastricht University; Declan McLaughlin, Queens University Belfast; and Melinda Anderson, Achieving the Dream, discussing strategies for student success, the importance of professional development and community support for advisors, and the role of AI in advising. They stress the need for institutions to prioritize student learning and well-being, as well as leverage technology while maintaining human connections. They emphasize the importance of small wins and everyday successes in higher education, drawing inspiration from historical achievements and the resilience of past educators.

Follow the podcast on your favorite podcast platform!

The Instagram, and Facebook handle for the podcast is @AdvisingPodcast

Also, subscribe to our Adventures in Advising YouTube Channel!

Connect with Matt and Ryan on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hey and welcome to Episode 127 of the adventures in advising podcast. This is Matt Markin, and from time to time since episode 47 we have had guest hosts join in to interview various other guests. And is that concept going away? No, no, it's not. I believe having guest hosts adds a different aspect. It makes the conversations more lively and relevant. But having said that, one thing I feel this podcast should have back is two permanent hosts, and on a personal level, I miss getting to work with someone else and wanting to share the knowledge and experiences of others and sharing their stories. So if you follow the podcast on social media, you already know who the new co host is, and so I am thrilled to have joining the adventures in advising podcast as the newest permanent co host. Ryan Scheckel from Texas Tech University. Ryan, hello, my friend. 

Ryan Scheckel  
Hey, Matt, good to see you again. It's, it's humbling, you know, it's, it's a good thing to be humbled, and it's also a good thing to be excited. And you know, I think the more we share the fact that we have multiple feelings inside of us, maybe the healthier we can be. Maybe we can have more productive conversations in general. So I am super excited to officially join the podcast. I've always treasured the opportunity to be a guest host and and to engage with our friends from around the world, around the work that we do with students in academic advising. But making it official and formal comes with a lot of a lot of perspective, and I'm super thankful, not just for the opportunity, of course, but as I've said before, the contribution you've made to my life, personally and professionally, and to the professional lives of so many people through this podcast, I want to give a big shout out to Colum as you know, as an OG, you should always, always give propers and respect to those who kick things off. It was great seeing him in London at the UKAT conference and, and I don't take lightly what it means to be in this spot.

Matt Markin  
Yeah. And you know, Ryan, you've mentioned being a multi time, not only guest to be interviewed, but also a multi time guest host. And so I think it was just a matter of time, and I'm glad that you agreed to become permanent co host of the podcast. And you know, I just think back to 2019 as kind of like that special year, how one social media post and a social media comment has turned into what I would say is a great friendship and also a solid collaborative process that that you and I have on various projects.

Ryan Scheckel  
Yeah, and if, for anyone who's curious about what Matt's talking about, I think there's an Academic Advising Today article that you can search about that talks about how that all happened. But for any of you who might be listening to this and be like, what are they on about? I'm just gonna say it's worth saying yes, it's worth connecting and having the conversation, even if it's with somebody you're only marginally aware of and haven't officially met yet, whether it's 2019 in Louisville or 2025, on your campus. It's always worth it to take that step closer, to close that gap, whatever the gap might be.

Matt Markin  
And you were mentioning uh, you cat, and that actually is a great transition into our first interview, which has Ann Bingham interviewing uh, David Grey, and Ann and David talked about 10 years of UKAT. This was recorded at the end of day two of the UKAT conference in London. And let's go ahead and we'll play that and then come back and chat more about it. 

Ryan Scheckel  
 Sounds great. 

Ann Bingham  
Here we are, David, we're at the end of our 10th conference. 

David Grey  
We are. 

Ann Bingham  
How does that feel? 

David Grey  
Amazing. Surprising. I don't know if it's surprising, but...

Ann Bingham  
I'll tell you, What surprises me is the success we've had in the sector that we're in, in the climates that we've been in for the last 10 years. 

David Grey  
Yeah, I think, and especially this conference, because it, given the climate that we're in, it wasn't going to be a given a conference will be successful. So to have so many people turn up and to see the passion and the excitement in the room, that that's amazing. That was great. And I think it's surprising what we've achieved in 10 years only because of the time in which we've achieved it 10 years sounds like a long time, but it's actually not a long time. 

Ann Bingham  
It's 10 academic cycles. Y

David Grey  
We've achieved a lot and had a lot of impact in a very short space of time. And that's the really surprising thing. But a really positive thing.

Ann Bingham  
It is positive. It is positive. I'll tell you what surprised me today, David, when Oscar said at that plenary, how many people are here for their first conference? Yeah. How did that happen? That's gonna be the best growth ever.

David Grey  
It was quite surprised, because I was, I was at the front looking at the audience at the time, and it was a staggering number of people who were here for the first time, but a lot of the people that I've seen around the conference for the last two days are people that I already know, that we've already met with. So I was trying to work out, are these people who've never really connected with the organization before, or are these people who've been connected with us in some way, but never been to the conference before? So I don't know which it is we, of course, we've had both, but I'm thinking there's probably a few people who have been engaged with the other things that we do, but just haven't been to the conference. And Pete just told me something really nice as well. So yeah, our conference chairman has just commented to me at the end how staff from his institution have spoken to him and said this was a really nice conference. This is really friendly and welcoming, which is the one thing that we often pride ourselves on about the conference, and it's really nice that that's echoed again, and we've heard that from other people. 

Ann Bingham  
I heard something today from one of our delegates who said, I've never presented at a conference, but I think I'm going to put something in next year, because this is such a friendly place to do it, and it was lovely because we've been saying that we are the friendly conference we are, and it's a great place to cut your teeth, in that sense, isn't it? I absolutely loved it. I've actually loved it. And the sessions, people have been so passionate. You know, we're all tired, everybody's tired, but they come here, and you can see the mood lifting, as the as the day goes on, you know, their people this afternoon have come and found me, skipped out to the last sessions, and all my meetings in the last session have come and found me. We've had our chats, and we've shared connections and things like that. I'm sorry to be going home because it's gone so quickly. 

David Grey  
That's the thing. Conferences do. Go really quickly. You spend a long time planning them, and then they're over very fast.

Ann Bingham  
So yeah, 10 years, our favorite?

David Grey  
 Favorite year?

Ann Bingham  
Favorite conference?

David Grey  
Favorite conference?

Ann Bingham  
Favorite venue. 

David Grey  
My favorite venue is the one yet to come. I know some of the places we're going to be hopefully going to in the future, and some that I'm quite looking forward to. So we've been in London for the last two years, so it's nice to be going north.

Ann Bingham  
for I'm so looking forward to Manchester, met at least now I'll be able to stop Dr. Craig McGill moaning about how weak the beer is down here.

David Grey  
Well, maybe we'll be able to take him a little bit further north before long, and find him something a bit stronger. 

Ann Bingham  
Well, Manchester has a fantastic craft beer quarters, so I'll look after him now. 

David Grey  
Look after him there. 

Ann Bingham  
I'm hoping to get Gavin over as well next year. 

David Grey  
Gavin's not actually been to the conference in person.  He's been, he came to our online once. And I think favorite conference, that's a hard question.

Ann Bingham  
Isn't it? Because they've had, they've all had something about them.

David Grey  
I'm actually really quite proud of what we did during the pandemic, because it was obviously a very strange time.

Ann Bingham  
We had less than a month before...

David Grey  
To put it together, but we got really good turnout, and people were really engaged with it. And those online conferences worked quite well.

Ann Bingham  
They did. Do you remember we used gather town to do the joint plan with LVSR? Yeah, that was fun. That was fun. I enjoyed that. But what was amazing about that one is we'd done that maze. It was east stores, never done the maze, and if you found the egg in the middle, it took you straight to the eversis site, and you could talk to them, because they were online, yeah, and you got a real chocolate egg, and you got a real chocolate egg in the post, yeah, get a chocolate egg. We did some brilliant stuff with that. 

David Grey  
We had a we had a meeting earlier today, and we were talking about some of the things. In fact, one of one of our sponsors, who's been around the conference for a long time, commented on how we always do something that's different and innovative, and how we've done very different things with kind of conference dinners, or the keynote that we did this year a very different format, how we're. So I guess, not afraid to take risks and try something different and innovative. And I'm kind of looking forward to what we do next. I have no idea what it is. Well, we've got some little ideas, but we've got a year to think about it. 

Ann Bingham  
We've got some exciting times ahead, then, haven't we? 

David Grey  
Yeah, we do like to do different things, so...

Ann Bingham  
But people love it. You come to a UKAT conference, you never know what you're gonna get in a good way, in a good way, absolutely, you know, but it's like the last couple of conference dinners haven't been banquet style. We've moved away from that a bit, and people remind me what we did last year for the conference dinner.

David Grey  
Last year was a traditional conference dinner at Greenwich in the old brewery. 

Ann Bingham  
Oh, in the old brewery, that's right, it was pub style. Yeah, it was good. That was good. I think people felt more relaxed and they weren't sitting around a white tablecloth. You know, it's finding a venue that can accommodate us all, isn't it?

David Grey  
Well, that's always a challenge. If numbers grow, then yes, that gets harder and harder, doesn't it?

Ann Bingham  
So, but, you know, other organizations manage it so we can. There's nothing that you can't can't do. We just have to think outside the box. Sometimes we do that. 

David Grey  
We're quite good at that. 

Ann Bingham  
I remember you at the very first conference with the multicolored hoodie.

David Grey  
Oh yes, we organized that one together. We got Charlie one of those. 

Ann Bingham  
Yep, and I remember you standing up to do the housekeeping, and that was the first time I'd actually heard you speak when we weren't in a conference style meeting. Yeah, you had that hoodie. You did all the flashy stuff. It's brilliant. 

David Grey  
I don't remember what flashy stuff I did see 10 years does that to the members.

Ann Bingham  
You were as enthusiastic then as you are now, and I think that's a wonderful way to end that interview. 

David Grey  
Oh, thank you. 

Matt Markin  
So, we just heard Anne and David talk about 10 years of UKAT and the conference that they've had. And Ryan, you've attended UKAT conferences before you've been a keynote speaker at one of those. We were both there, like you mentioned before, we played the recording at their last conference in London. What are your thoughts on 10 years of UKAT?

Ryan Scheckel  
You know, I have a real heart for our history. I think the way that we talk about ourselves and where we've been and what we've done says a lot about who we can become. And when I think about organizations, these professional groups of educators in this higher ed space, it can't be overstated how important they are. And for better or worse, we as human beings relate to organizations in this trust economy, and when something is new, when something's unfounded or a little less established, we don't, maybe value it as much. So it's such a milestone for the organization to sort of, you know, say it's been a decade. We've been at this for a decade. Most people know that the people who are doing advising work, especially in the United States, a decade in position, is ancient nearly and so there's so much institutional memory and professional knowledge that's gained and shared, especially when you have consistent leadership. And so I'm really proud of David and the work of the group for not only getting that off the ground in their particular context, but sticking with it through a pandemic, through all the uncertainty of what membership looks like and programming and events. It was, it was really a treat to revisit my colleagues in UKAT in a conference setting. And of course, we're in touch through social media and other ways. But having been there in Plymouth in 2019 celebrating the legacy of founding members, and then to come back in 2025 and their 10 year anniversary was it was a real treat. And I'm so glad that not only the association accepted the proposal and the multiple proposals, but that my institution helped fund it. You know that these things are possible to travel, travel internationally for the work that we're doing in academic advising.

Matt Markin  
Oh, 100% agree. And you know, April attending that UKAT conference, that was my first conference for UKAT, and I feel like I for sure want to go back next year in Manchester and every conference after that. I mean, I definitely enjoyed the sessions, and I told David this after the conference ended. I don't know if you experienced it, but it was one of the conferences I've ever attended where during a session, I did not see one person checking or answering emails. They were actually focused. And I know it sounds like such a small detail, but it stood out to me because I'm like, it made me feel like attendees were so focused on the presentation or the panel that they wanted to absorb as much information as possible. So it's very refreshing to see.

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, and my experience has been especially when engaging with other organizations whose cultures. And frameworks are different, that there's definitely going to be something that feels different. And you know, we're constantly translating the language and the structural differences across the pond when we're in a UK setting. But you know, I'm excited for the future of checking out what else is out there in professional spaces, and how we can carry from our advising communities the benefit to other communities. That's something that this podcast, whether it was intended at the beginning to be the case or not, but carrying that benefit from one community the next is such an enriching and fulfilling activity.

Matt Markin  
Sure, hindsight is 2020, yeah, I'll say that's for sure. What the podcast was supposed we were doing from the start. Well, here's some anymore you can't conferences. And I think this is a good transition to our next interview. And, and this is a panel style interview, and this actually has Melinda Anderson, Declan McLaughlin, Iris Burks, and some person named Ryan Scheckel. I don't know. And so this panel is about, yeah, so this panel is about what knowledge and tips can panelists from around the world provide regarding dealing with change wellness and yet still supporting student success. And we did a version of this panel at the UKAT conference in London, and that also had Ann Bingham on it.So here we go.

Matt Markin  
So, from student success to an ever changing landscape, from a growing demand for advising services to limited budgets. What can today's panel of faculty coordinators and administrators share with you about these issues? Well, let's find out. Let's welcome to the panel. Melinda Anderson, Iris Burks, Declan McLaughlin and Ryan Scheckel. And many of you have been on the podcast before, and for some it's been a while, so I think let's go down the line and tell us a little bit about yourselves and also where you work and what your responsibilities are. And Melinda, let's start with you.

Melinda Anderson  
Okay, well, thank you, Matt, so much for hosting us on Adventures in Advising, and just really excited to have this conversation today. So my role at achieving the dream is executive director for network engagement, and so I have the honor and privilege of supporting community colleges as they come into our network, as they think about institutional redesign to support student success initiatives. And so my portfolio areas look at rural community college success and tribal colleges and universities, and we also look at strategic enrollment management initiatives through grant supports. And then, as I mentioned earlier, also supporting schools as they come into our network. And then we also support student success innovation with grants through Kresge for South African institutions as well. But when I think overall, my background and career really has been looking at student success initiatives through academic advising, Enrollment Management supports. So happy to have this conversation today. 

Matt Markin  
Wonderful. Declan. Let's jump to you.

Declan McLaughlin  
Hello Matt, and hello to all my fellow panelists here. It's nice to see you again. I'm Declan McLaughlin. I'm a Senior Lecturer education within the Center for Biomedical Sciences education in Queen's University Belfast in Northern Ireland. Day to day, I am an anatomist, so my background is in biomedical science, and I moved from there and studied some postgraduate degrees. I have a master's in clinical anatomy and a PhD in cardiovascular physiology, and I've somehow ended up in education despite being what we would class as a wet lab researcher. So a lot of my background in training is in a laboratory setting, but I kind of found a flare and a love for the education side of things, and victim of circumstance, I always kind of class myself as I've ended up on the education side of things, the academic side of university life and teaching, and I love it. I haven't looked back since. So as an anatomist, my day to day job is working with pretty much healthcare and allied healthcare professionals and trainee students, medicine, dentistry, biomedical science, human biology. Every now and again, as part of continued professional development, we'll get physiotherapists and occupational therapists, and then practicing clinicians who are coming back to refresh their training. It's maybe some surgical trainees, some general practitioners, physicians and speaking language therapists. So I kind of do the core teaching side of university with our students. But part of my job, we also run external courses. So I teach everyone, everyone I see, kind of where all the bits of their body are, what they do, what they look like, what their jobs for. But then I guess, as an aside, as part of my role, I am. In my center, my education center, an advisor of studies. This is the role that is similar to a personal tutor or academic advisor. We know that it changes depending on where you are in the world, so I'm an advisor of studies. Part of my role is to guide students through the academic rules and regulations of university life. So deciding what module choices are best for them or what kind of their end goal is. You know, alongside our personal tutors and our other support services, it's kind of making sure that they can get through their educational career. And one of the the other things I do then, as part of that role, from being an advisor of studies, it's kind of an area that I'm interested in. I've shown a bit of interest in, and someone higher up in the university caught word of it, and I am now responsible for the formal training of our advisors within an institutional level. So myself and my colleague, Olivia Hamill, we run the advisors of studies training. We maybe touch on it later, but we haven't had it for a few years, and it's now kind of getting re established, which gives people who have been an advisor for a while an opportunity to refresh all the changes since they've done it last. And importantly, I would argue, for all our new advisors that are coming on board, kind of gives them lays the ground of the work and the kind of commitments and things that they'll commonly see coming across their desk. So that's me.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, well, at least that seems to be common across many institutions across the globe. If you know something or you're interested in something, and someone finds out. Well, thank you, Declan, Iris, let's go to you. 

Iris Burks  
Thank you, Matt, and hello fellow participants. My name is Iris Burks. I'm the program manager of student guidance at Maastricht University. I work for our Student Service Center as well as our teaching and learning center. It's a joint joint initiative, which makes it a very flex, flexible and agile position. I was trained as a neurobiologist, somewhat similar to Declan. Came from biologies, and then in my during my first job, I became responsible for academic advising in one of the programs that I worked for. And indeed, also never looked back. I looked I went so far that I never even looked back at my discipline anymore, and really dove into academic advising. I became the coordinator of the network of student guidance staff at Maastricht University at a crucial point during Corona and that position at that point required more there were more funds available, more needs, and this position was of the program manager student guidance was created, and for the past two years, we've been working on developing a shared vision for student guidance. We've we've formulated ambitions for 2030 and we're now working towards realizing those, those ambitions, some of my formal responsibilities at the moment still include being the chair of that network that I mentioned earlier, but I'm also developing a learning narrative. So if we say advising is teaching, then what do we teach? And I'm on a project where we develop a formulation for our duty of care and identify which roles we have and what the responsibilities of each of those roles are, because that in the Netherlands is not such a clarified aspect as maybe in other countries.

Matt Markin  
So I'm realizing how many responsibilities and how busy you all are. So Ryan, last but not least.

Ryan Scheckel  
So yeah, I'm at Texas Tech University. My current role is Assistant Director for a pre professional health career. So we we won't talk too much healthcare. We'll focus as much as we can, even though it's lovely to have colleagues who have the backgrounds that are on this panel. I came into this position almost 10 years ago, and I came from our School of Art at Texas Tech University, which is a completely different vibe than pre health, but I'm responsible today for supervising a team of six primary role academic advisors who work with students who intend to here in the United States, go on to what we refer to as professional schools, medical schools, nursing schools, pharmacy schools and the like. I started in advising all the way back in 2002 working with undecided, undeclared students after teaching in what is a version of a K-12 public education through the correctional system. I've been in academic advising, and sort of identify primarily as an educator who is working as an advising role, but I identified somewhere in the middle of my time in our School of Art, that administration, working with a team of advisors, having a kind of different influence on the outcome for students, was something that I was interested in professionally, and so fortunately, this position was created. It didn't exist before me. So I get to be the person who sets the agenda, I guess. But along the way, I've picked up a few other responsibilities. We have a medical school access program for low income Texas residents that I'm the faculty director for teaching health professions seminar and those sorts of things. And then I'm on our institutions advising council as well, which is going into its third year, and so having a chance to influence the academic advising conversation at an institutional level while being very much embedded in a department.

Matt Markin  
So lots, lots going on. So this question is for going to be for everyone, and we'll start with Iris on this one, and then after Iris, whoever wants to jump in after, please do. But what key strategies should institutions, in your opinion, should institutions adopt to ensure continued student success in this ever changes, ever evolving higher ed landscape, and if you can, you share an example of maybe an innovative student support initiative that, whether you've been a part of or know of, that has significantly impacted student success or retention? 

Iris Burks  
Thank you. Matt, yes, well, I think to start with the most important thing I wanted to share is make sure that your community, your advisors, your psychologists. Everybody who is on board of what you're doing is on board on doing the same thing. So make sure you have a common goal in mind. And we've worked on a shared vision for advising with our entire community. We co created this, and I've discovered what you what a wonderful and meaningful experience that was to do this together, and how incredibly knowledgeable. Our colleagues are, how many ideas there are, and how enriching and empowering it's been to to get together and to build this future narrative together, and I would really advise everyone to go on such a journey together. It doesn't need to take two years. There's probably shorter routes to imagine, but to take that time and to talk together about what you find important, where you want to go with your program, I would definitely advise as a best strategy, and within that, try to focus on what is the student learning. So rather than looking at all of the facilities we are offering and all of the interventions we are addressing, try to center everything around what is the student taking out of this? What are they? What person have they become through our interactions? What, what skills have they learned through the advising process that they've gone through? Yeah, I think those, those were the most important findings that we've we've come across in these these past years.

Melinda Anderson  
You know, Iris, I definitely agree that it is a it takes a village to bring everybody together for this work. What I'm finding in the field that the most successful models are not schools or institutions that are looking at this work as just somebody else's responsibility, right? It is from a leadership perspective, you know, a top down, bottom up approach in terms of how this work is happening, but also, for example, the way that you are deploying technology to be able to support the work that's happening across your campus. How are people looking at using technology? So, for example, not just having a chat bot, right? But how is that chat bot being deployed on your campus to be able to be like, I don't want to, I know we're going to talk about AI later, Matt, but you know, right? How is machine learning right being utilized and do and how are you using that information, right, to be able to help further support your students. So how are you leveraging your resources on your campus? So for example, what's innovative for me when I hear a campus say the information that we're using that students are asking questions, right? How are we then using that information to redesign services on our campus to support students, right? Like, if they keep asking this, then maybe we're not doing what we need to do to be able to help support students in terms of the information that we're offering or providing, right? So, how are we constantly redesigning our services? And so when I think about early alert systems, right, how are we redesigning the way that we're using early alert systems to be able to support students that we know need different a differential level of support, right? How are we communicating, right? Are we getting better with the way that we're messaging to students on campus about the support services that they need, basic needs, support? Thoughts, especially, you know, in the US, you know about food insecurity, housing insecurity, you know, how are we addressing some of those challenges that our students are facing? And when I think about innovative, innovative approaches, especially when we think about how we're supporting like in the work that I'm seeing, you know, community college students, in terms of making sure that those services or outreach supports are being provided. Are just some examples of the things that I'm seeing in the field today.

Ryan Scheckel  
Yeah, I think one of the things that we're hearing is the resources. It's hard, especially when institutions are understandably concerned about bottom lines, trends with enrollment, legislative uncertainty, it's hard to say, fund it and not hear the inherent risk in the kind of request. But if we are to believe that academic advising, personal tutoring, whatever framework we use, is an educated process, if it's part of the teaching and learning mission of the institution, then it has to be funded in a way that is representative, commensurate with the impact that it has. And I don't know that that's particularly innovative, but I would say that the ways of leveraging resources to meet the challenges of financial reality and student need is going to require innovation and a strategy that Places administrative responsibility on the outcomes, but not just the enrollment outcomes, the traditional definitions now of student success, with persistence, retention, graduation rates, but the whole student definition of student success, and that is Just going to be a resource intensive endeavor. You know, I Iris started the the response of this question with the idea of being on the same page. But if the paper is tissue thin, then it doesn't matter how many people we try to get on that page. It's going to fail. And, and it's a, it might be a weak metaphor, but it needs to be a very robust page if we're all going to be on it. And I think that that kind of conversation about how do we adopt an ecosystem or a systems mindset about student success, instead of laying it at the feet of any one party or group on campus. I think that's the strategy that institutions should adopt. Is one that says we're all in this together. These are our students. This is our institution, and this is our future that we have an effect on.

Declan McLaughlin  
I probably mimic a lot of what my colleagues have said here, a little bit from everyone. It definitely is worth remembering why we do what we do, and who is at the center of that, and that's the students that we work with. And you know, our job as advisors, as tutors, as guides, for want of a better term, is to help those students achieve what they initially set out to do, and occasionally there can be hurdles, and the height of those hurdles can vary dramatically, dependent on the situation, the institution, the legislation, the governments that we work under, and some of these things are out of our control. So what I think is important is that with all of these things that we do, not just with advising, but for anyone that's ever worked or colleagues here, or anyone that happens to be listening, anyone that's ever worked in further or higher education at any stage, will know that there's a certain amount of flexibility that has to come with the job. There are some things that you kind of have to accept a little bit. You have to trust that the people that are making decisions maybe slightly higher up or doing it with the best intentions. Now, the cynic in me would say that's not necessarily always the case, but, you know, there are some things that we have to to rule with. But I think a job as our part of our job as advisors, is to occasionally push back a little and fight for, you know, where there are budget cuts or their resource depletion that we have to say that we can't work magic with nothing. We need some tools here. And whether that's financial or technological or on a personnel level, whether it's just having more bodies on the ground to deal with our ever increasing amount of students, it is important. And I think our job for us that are doing the job, the roles that we're in, is to push back sometimes, to say, look, you're asking more from us with less, and we can't keep doing that, because for some of us, it is our it is our whole job. It's our everyday job. And I know the way that structures are in different companies varies, but for some of us. And I include myself in this. The role of advisor is an addition to what I'm effectively employed to do at the university. And if you want to keep me doing my day to day job, my teaching, my student facing role, and you want me to do all of these other things, then there has to be some give somewhere. And the give can't always be on the advisor, the gift has to be somewhere, maybe in the structure or the expectations or the work or the workload that is associated with being this advisor. So I think pushing back to show the importance of this rules, or these rules that we do is kind of key for a lot of this. And ultimately, at the end of the day, we work with human beings, and human beings have this really annoying and frustrating sometimes, ability to kind of just, no matter how many rules and how much you try to fit something inside a box, there will always be that one student or collective students that kind of sit outside it. And again, it's bringing that flexibility advising, academic advising, is not a one size fits all, even though you might be working with a particular set of students, and they're all kind of homogeneous, and they're all coming from the same background, even within that background, they are not all the same, and everyone will have different needs and responsibilities. So I'm kind of a firm believer, and we kind of just go with the flow. We work with what we've got at the time, and hopefully the river is leading the summer good, and not necessarily over the edge of a waterfall. But even then, we roll with that as well, because we know all those kind of anecdotal quotes that, you know people have gone over Niagara Falls in a water barrel. So it is survivable, but you just have to be ready for better off and tumble. So that's kind of how I take my approach to what I do.

Matt Markin  
And I like what you said in terms of, like, you know, we can't, can't have, can't make the magic, you know, with nothing and but I think Iris is point to about, like, you have so many knowledgeable people at your institutions, and there's all these creative ideas. So it's hopefully we're tapping into a lot of everyone's ideas, and hopefully, maybe there's something to implement there. But I think it's a good segue into this, into this next question, and Declan, I'm going to throw this to you, and then anyone else that wants to jump in on this one. You know, in terms of, like, budget, in terms of a lot of demand on advisors or personal tutors, in your opinion, how can institutions create, I guess, a healthier and more sustainable work environment for advisors and personal tutors. And maybe, what are some creative ways that you or your institution have supported that well being and retention of advisors and personal tutors?

Declan McLaughlin  
Sure. So I think it comes back to what I briefly mentioned. It comes down to the support and the acknowledgement and the recognition of what we as advisors do, and the value in place that that has in our wider setting, whether that's institutional or at a regional or a national level, as with all this kind of sustainable and and healthy approach to things. I mean, there's there's the sustainability of the role itself and its purpose that it sits within our institutions. But then there's that kind of health and well being of the individuals, whether that's our students, which is kind of, in my book, anyway, kind of core what we do. But also then of the advisors, you know, my grandmother always kind of said, you can't pour from an empty cup. And there is a huge amount responsibility on ourselves to look after ourselves and our colleagues who are doing the same thing, because if we're not in a good frame of mind, everyone has a bad day, and that's okay, and there is a place for that. And sometimes students, unfortunately, can be on the receiving end of us just having a groggy Monday and just not firing at our best. But if academic advising him can bring huge pressures, and for some people, it's very hard to detach that, particularly when you have a relationship, you start to build this camaraderie with your peers or with the students that you look after, and if we don't look after ourselves and offload that, whether that's with our own mental health or having some sort of institutional outlet or counseling or access to some resource, that we can kind of take that bit of our brain out and park it and say this, this is the this is my job. This should not be impacted on my day to day, life, with with friends, with family, kind of my personal and own private social aspect that that can muddy the waters, and it's hard to find where those lines separate. So balancing that having access to some sort of support services, not necessarily always mental health, but, you know, discounts at gym so that, you know there is separate time that you can designate within your week to just go and clear your mind, to do something. A lot of that comes down to personal responsibility as well about our own time management. You know, we preach this to students about, you know, being structured in their weeks and. Inside for revision and study. But again, if we don't heed our own advice, and I will be the first to admit that, you know, I'm very much sometimes when work is expected of me, I will go into that student mindset and I will leave it to the last possible minute before I have to do it. But I know from experience that I work well under that kind of slight pressure, it gets the best out of me. So there's practical things like that. Areas supportive community, having having outlets where advisors can come together that might be at a local level. Certainly in my center, we have three or four kind of advisors. We all look after the same types of students. So we just have informal chats, kind of water cooler chats, Tea Room chats, but then at institutional levels, maybe some sort of advisor forum, or a community of practice, or some sort of outlet. And then, of course, when you step that up, it's maybe within regional levels. And I know things like NACADA and UKAT and other kind of higher ed, kind of parallel type of organizations have that. So even advisors from the same city in different institutions might come together, and that's that's a way of kind of offloading, and the more I find from speaking with yourself and peers and other people I've met, is that the problems that you think you have at your institution, I guarantee you other people have them. And the only thing that really changes the name that's above the door and perhaps your individual title, that these challenges that we all face are kind of within the sector, and maybe that's just reflective of where we're kind of out of the sector, or where the sector is at with things like budget constraints and pressures, which, you know, others might want to hit at. So this, this building a supportive community, I think, is really important. And then again, just this, this recognition, personal development, is a nice way to try and recognize it. And certainly at Queen's, one of the things that we've done, or certainly are trying to do, is we've set up a community of practice that is responsible for setting up our institutional community practice, and it really is kind of a very, relatively informal monthly get together, where staff come and they we just have a chat, we have a guest speaker, and we talk about a topic, but more often than not, it's more as a forum for someone to bring a scenario and say, Look, this has come across my desk in the last three or four weeks. I'm not really sure how to handle it. Has anyone any ideas? And those scenarios that come are usually the like we said earlier, about the outside the box. It's the ones that it's just a very strange or magic combination of circumstances that you know it's from this, how you approach it is from policy A, and the consequences are from policy B. And it's your job as an advisor how to piece it all together so that the student understands it. So these peer support networks, I think, are crucial in anything that we do, and how big you want to scale that is entirely up to, I think, the individuals, and yes, getting some sort of recognition, reminding institutions of the value that advisors have and the really important role that they have in student successes. And that's not necessarily like Brian was hinting at the outcomes about the graduations, the number of degrees, the amount of people do majors in this or minors and whatever it's about day to day, about bringing those students back and making sure that they stay at university because they are fully entitled to be there. And an awful lot of the time, as we know life can throw know, all sorts of things in the way, and it's about for trying to level the playing field as best as we can. And I think that if advisors weren't doing what we do, we would have an awful lot fewer students studying at higher education and further education colleges because of what we do in our roles about making sure that they stay and they have the access and the ability to stay in their institutions. So there are lots of things. It's not a one size fits all. There are countless opportunities. And I'm sure our listeners out there will have their own kind of thing that they can relate to, but that's, that's kind of some of the things that I feel strongly about and things that we're trying to do here at Queen's. 

Iris Burks  
Thank you, Declan. And maybe I can jump in on that for a moment, because I heard you mention at several moments the importance of professional development, and I fully agree and support that notion. I feel that if advisors tutors, whatever you title, you give them know what they need to do, what they are responsible for, and what not and how to do their role, they'll be more protected and they'll be more safe in in the role that they are fulfilling. I know that in the Netherlands, at least, this is quite a discussion. Where, what is your role start? What does it end? And where do you hand over to the next professional, and that is something I feel that we as institutions can also give guidance in for advisors, to give them safety, to say, you know, this is really not something you need to handle. You can escalate or or escalating already sounds like it's it's a problem, but you can refer someone when, when the question reaches this kind of level of complexity or this nature, you don't need to deal with this. And on the other hand, for the aspects that they do need to deal with, we do expect them to tackle, to also give them the tools and a toolbox, not just one tool, but also the diversity of tools, to approach those with confidence. Because I think that doesn't, doesn't just sit with our students, right? That that idea that you need to feel confident and competent in what you do, but it also sends, it sits with our advisors too. They need to feel that they are empowered to do what they need to do. And I love Declan, what you said about the Community of Practice. That's really something I feel very strongly about bringing advisors together to discuss experiences, initiatives, to have somewhat of a structured peers of supervision in that to learn from each other's approaches, ideas. Yeah, I love that notion. Thank you. 

Matt Markin  
Melinda, I'm going to ask you this because Iris was bringing up professional development, and I was curious about, you know, your knowledge you want to share on it, on you know, how you think institutions can balance the growing demand of advising services when you have these limited budgets and resources, and how are you supposed to implement professional development. 

Melinda Anderson  
When I was at the listening a little bit about the so I think about the internal the external dynamics, because I think that so Declan, when you were talking about not pouring from an empty cup, and I'm actually sitting across from a bookcase right now, and it says, what got you here? Won't get you there. So when I think about Institute, institutions, for example, when they're growing enrollments, right? And you think about your infrastructure that you you have in place. And so, you know, Ryan, you were talking about structures, which I get all excited, because I'm a systems thinker. So institutions continue to grow, but then they have the same infrastructure, infrastructure in place. And so they think that they're going to continue to move right, with the same footprint, and it's like the answer is no, right? You're you want to continue to grow, but then you're not growing your staff, and then you're not thinking about the implications of what that means. If you're growing your student population, you would then, of course, hire more faculty to teach them, right? So then, of course, you're going to write like, okay, Melinda, right, right? We know, we know this, right? And so as you're thinking about tying yourself to these outcomes, I think as an administrator, you have a responsibility to also be thinking about, well, then you have to also grow your infrastructure, and that is also related to academic advising, support services that you're providing your students. We were seeing enrollments grow, but then they weren't growing residence hall spaces. They weren't growing where students were going to eat, where were they going to park. It was one of those situations that I was just like watching this, like, what are we doing? You're growing. You wanting to serve more students, but then you weren't growing the services to serve students. And so then eventually it caught on. So I'll get off my soapbox there. But Matt, what you were saying about what do you do when you need to grow professional development but then you don't have the budgets? What I have been seeing is that advisors have been taking it upon themselves to, you know, create those community of practices on their own. They were having conferences on their campuses that were supported by those champions on their campuses as administrators. So it was good to see that there was a need. We don't have money to send you, so we'll do it internally, virtual spaces for people to gather, to be able to share and exchange information. So there were ways that people were accomplishing community of practices that weren't costing a lot of money. When I think about in terms of a movement, in terms of, how are you able to find well being, the idea of understanding what you need, in terms of, from a campus perspective, you know, how are you going to continue this work given the demands of your time. So understanding Iris, I love your point, when does my work stop? Right? You know, when do How am I defining my work, right? I'm not a mental health counselor, right? When I think about the COVID times, you know, duty to report. When does my work really end?So I think people started to have better boundaries around their work. And so I think I did start seeing those trends, and we started having better conversations about the boundaries of our work. And so I think about it was a combination Declan, like you were saying, it was a combination of a lot of things, right? Better boundaries. It was about, how was I building community on my campus? Is. It was about administrators saying, Okay, if I can't send you away, how do I provide services on campus for you to have these conversations that were important? It was about, how do I gather and find my my own community? Because I just sometimes I might need to just scream in the dark, right? It was about people like Matt, who were creating these spaces for people to be able to share their stories. And so you could listen to a podcast. It was about places like UKAT and NACADA. Having regional spaces for people to come. It was about people continuing this kind of work for us to be able to gather. So I mean, I'm hoping, Matt, that I'm answering your question, but I also wanted to put context, because I think about how the world has continued to evolve, right? So we're sitting in different socio political experiences, and people are still asking the question, how do I continue to find joy in my work, right? Given what it is that I'm currently experiencing. And so I just want to encourage people that this kind of work will still continue for people to still connect and still answer the questions on, how do I continue to support my students? Well, given the pressures and the demands of the work that I'm still experiencing because Declan, you're absolutely right, we've got to keep the student in the center, right. People come to school because they want to change their lives, right? And so that is ultimately what it is that we are going to try to continue to do, to support our students. Because when they're sitting in front of you right, that is why they're here. And so that's why we continue to show up, and it's to support our students. 

Matt Markin  
But, I think this leads in a great transition, because, you know, we're hearing terms like change, evolve, technology developing. Well that leads into AI, and this is going to go to Ryan and also to you, Melinda. What are your concerns, if any, about AI in advising, how can institutions prepare and address these challenges that I mean, AI is not going anywhere. So how do we use it? Do we did we not so what are your thoughts? 

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, anyone who's tuned into the podcast knows that I'm I tend to be an early adopter. I tend to be lean on my sci fi geek, and I I'm hopeful about what technology can do. If nothing else, I have a bemused sort of perhaps it could be interesting and a new experience that we've never had before. And so like, my default mode is, yeah, let's play with it. Let's figure it out. Let's tinker. Let's test anytime my institution. Over the last 20 plus years, I've been advising here, implemented a new platform, or technology tool or whatever. I was the first person in clicking all the buttons, never on the agenda with the trainer, because I was like, I want to see what this does, and I want to go there and, like, breaking things. So I developed a reputation for that, not because I don't trust it, but because I think if you're going to develop trust, you need to know something. And I think I think you know, following on Melinda's question and the framework of these past few questions about what institutions responsibility is, I think institutions have a responsibility to operate in a trust economy with their advisors, and to not only build and protect but repair trust. And there's plenty of scholarly work out there on those models, if anyone's curious about how organizations build, protect and repair trust. But the I don't know if you want to think of it as a free radical of AI, the sort of unknown quantity does not initially build trust. And I think that that needs to be clear. It's not that the products aren't trying to be trustworthy products. It's that most educators start from a position of not trusting it for various reasons, and we might speak to some of those reasons, but if an institution is interested in leveraging the resource of AI in an advising or Student Success conversation, they would be well advised to consider the dynamic of trust and the effect that trust has on our experiences as people, our efficacy in trying to care for others, and ultimately, our ability to be free thinkers. Because if we are in a trust deficit point of view. We are not going to be our best thinkers. We are not likely to be using the tools to the best of our ability or in innovative, inventive ways. We are more likely to use those tools in defensive, protective, fight or flight kind of ways. And you know, so that's one of the things that I like about. About the AI conversation is it reveals more about us humans, I think, than it does about the technology itself. I've mentioned this before, at least on this podcast, that I have not yet seen an implementation of AI. That is what I think it could potentially be doing. And this is, I'll retreat back to my sci fi world, some sort of active monitor for an institution and student activity. I know people have lots of feelings about that, whether it's Big Brother or, you know, the going all the way back to the the Wizard of Oz and the man behind the curtain, whatever you want to think about it. Everybody is saying, hypothetically, it could hypothetically, AI could do this. Hypothetically, AI could do that. Hypothetically, AI could free up the people to be that personal touch for students. It's like, well, let's see it happen. Let's actually implement it in a way that's clear and transparent, that is context and data driven, and not just something that could possibly happen. Therefore we should trust it. Let's test it. Let's see what it actually can do, whether that's in a fully simulated environment or not. I just right now I know the way that students use it, and I think that there's some really fascinating, interesting possibilities the way advisors could use it in their daily practice. But on an institutional level, I don't know that I've seen a best practice or a benchmark or an implementation that is truly, genuinely innovative, that is steps or a significant distance beyond what predictive analytics promised a generation ago.

Melinda Anderson  
Well, Ryan, I we are on the same page about how we feel about AI, but I will so I agree, and I love your point about trust economy. I think institutions. You know, well, number one, you know, when you think about education overall, the idea of building the critical thinker, right, it's it should be something that is encouraged, right? And so when you think about the implications, or the usage of AI, I think that you you, you have to play with it to understand what it is, right, and so that you can understand the pros and cons of how it could show up, right? And so I think you have to start there. But when I think about what it means, or the implications for how it could be used from an advising perspective, I think that number one, the idea of efficiency around the just the administrative practices alone with advising services could be huge that allow you to move in different ways around the human connection. So I'm always talking a little bit about, you know, if ChatGPT, for example, could help me strengthen my communications. You know, being able to connect with students differently from that perspective, then I can show up differently right when I'm having those human interactions with my students. And so it's not about it replacing anything. It's about, how does it help me evolve in my practices? And so that's usually the angle that I take. And so what I'm seeing or hearing in the field is that that's how people are currently utilizing it. It's creating efficiency in my administrative practices. It's not replacing the way that we show up with students. So thinking about how you can scale or become more efficient with your practices, how it creates the ability to be personalizing your communications, how it can help with analyzation of of data, right? We're always encouraging, you know, advising professionals to think differently about how they're using data, you know. So how does it crunch the numbers for you, right? So then you can think about the work that you're doing, for example, even from a career perspective, you know, if you wanted to ask, what are the jobs in this market, you know, a student asks you a question. For example, think of it as a second brain, right? A student comes in and says, what jobs are available in this market? You know, blah, blah. You could just go in there and say, what jobs are available in this market? You know, the information appears for you. You're sitting right there with the student. The student. Well, you don't have to take time to Google that, right? You go, here. You get that information. It pulls it automatically for you. Like, why wouldn't you let that help you, to help your student, right? So when I think about how you can leverage that, that kind of technology, because, you know, students love to show up and ask questions, you know, I was thinking about, and you're sitting there, and you're just like, well, you know, I don't know that, because, you know, advisors will say, I'll get back to you, right? I'm not going to tell you what's wrong. You know, if I don't know what I'm going to tell you, I'm going to get back with you with the information, so in that moment, it can pull it right for you. So I think of how it can, you know, how we can use information in that way. So, you know, I agree with Ryan about you know, let's play with it. Let's understand what the implications are. But when I think about it from an institutional perspective, you're absolutely right. I don't think that there is a best practice yet, but it's not going anywhere, right? So why don't we dive in and think about the pros and cons, talk to each other about how it's showing up in our practices. I most recently, came from a conference, and it was all over. People were talking about, how does this show up? How do you use it in your administrative practices, you know, in supervision, how to using it in your communications? How are students utilizing it? How faculty are utilizing it? You don't want to be left behind, right if your students know more about it in your classroom as a faculty member. How do you write, then show up for your students at another conference? What I loved about the speakers that were there. We had one that was one speaker talking about creativity that may be lost. And then we had somebody else who was an AI expert that was talking about, nobody owns this yet, so you were free to create. And so what I loved about how those two conversations is that, you know, we have a responsibility to continue to be creative, and then we have a responsibility to create what this will be for us and in this space. And so I'm excited about what the future holds, because nobody has told us what it's supposed to be yet. So I encourage people like Ryan play with it like don't let people tell you what they think it is. You tell me what you think it is right, and let's have that conversation. Now, with that being said, I do have to, you know, I love being devil's advocate. What could go wrong? I'm not so wild in my thoughts that I can't possibly see scenarios where this could go off the rails. But my thing is, but you have to also be able to eliminate that, right? And you can't tell me that if you're not experiencing what it could be for you. So, but my thing is, let's have the conversation. So I'll leave my thoughts there.

Matt Markin  
No, I like how you said, Melinda, that's like, you can be a second brain, especially if students are asking questions and it's like, we don't know, well, maybe we can use like ChatGPT, for example, and maybe get some sort of answer to share with the student, or maybe it leads them to going to a certain department. And maybe we can have a better handoff using AI, but just like anything, always double check that the answer is correct. I mean Notebook LM through Google, one of things it has at the bottom of its page is, if you use it, says that it may not be 100% accurate. So for a student, it could be a study buddy for them to use in their study practice. But yeah, it could be a second brain, something to kind of play off of if you're an advisor administrator, but always double checking that the answer is correct, but yes, I agree to play around with it as well. 

Melinda Anderson  
Because Matt, that's a really good point, because the expert we had on AI had mentioned that what we currently have is already obsolete, right? So these systems are continuing to get better and to improve, and say you're absolutely right. Check your sources. Double check your sources. For everybody who's been in graduate school, cite your sources. You know what I mean. So for those who are just listening to us, my eyes got really wide, like we all know right, that you have to cite your sources. Where did you get this information from? So as we continue to evolve in this space, we know it's not going anywhere, but just know that everything that we're playing with is probably already old, right? You know how, like when you get the iPhone, I don't, and you think that you've got the best, it's already old, right? So my thing is, I absolutely agree with you, Matt, you you've got to be very careful about what it is and understand what it is that you're doing. Yeah, I agree.

Matt Markin  
So this next question, as we get to the last couple questions, I'm going to throw this one to Iris, and then anyone that wants to jump in and answer, go for it. But if you could implement one significant change in higher education related to your role today, what would it be?

Speaker 1  
Thank you, Matt. And that is such a difficult and beautiful question. At the same time, I thought about this for a long time. If I had that magic wand, what would I change? And I think maybe related to my earlier comments about having a shared vision and learning focus on learning, I would also say that that whatever student guidance initiatives you have, whatever it is that you're trying to do with students, try to do that proactively, preferably formatively, in a way that it really forms the student, rather than patching up things after they've run into things. And that should be part of the intended learning objectives of the program that you're working in, it should be embedded in the core of what you what that program aims to do, because what we do isn't just patching a student up. We're teaching them fundamental skills. And that should be embedded in the core of the program. The benefit of that isn't just that we can keep that focus on student. Learning. It also means that we can then say, okay, we need the means to make this a reality, because it is part of the program outcomes. We immediately get a quality control cycle. Because of it, we become part of the program's audit. So I believe that getting as close as we can to the educational process, to the standard educational process in order to benefit from that quality control, that professional development, I would say, is one of the things that I would really want to wish for all of us tomorrow, and one I know that I was supposed to look for one, but I look for a second one because it's it to me is also so close to my heart. I feel that we should also do this in co creation with our students, our Ryan talked earlier about this trust economy, and I think we should build the trust economy with our students as well. They are such knowledge. Said they are so knowledgeable about their own learning process, their own future, their interests, and I believe that they can provide such interesting perspectives on what they want to learn, how they want to learn, and we we enlist our students, we enroll our students in all sorts of jobs and and in positions where they can share ideas and CO create with us, and this brings such beautiful, fresh ideas that I would really, yeah, that would be a great tip.

Declan McLaughlin  
If I can jump in here. I think just from speaking the last few questions that people been speaking about, I think one thing that I would really love to see in higher education is an upskilling of our advisors in whether that's in a continued professional development, in just maybe learning a new technology or a new skill, or kind of skill set that you have within your own institution, or just kind of come into what Iris had mentioned about some sort of quality assurance, or kind of kind of quality standard that there was almost like a recognized badge of honor type of thing that you know, if you come and talk to an advisor, whether it's in the United States or Canada or mainland Europe or the UK, or wherever you happen to be, and they have PhD or some sort of, let's go say AA, but maybe that's not the best choice to say. But you know, academic advisor type of thing after their name, that there's this almost a kind of standard that, you know, that they have gone through some degree of scrutiny, you know, like, like doing a PhD or a master's or a bachelor's degree, that there is a certain level that that person has achieved in their training that incorporates this kind of humanistic approach, so that kind of going back a little bit to AI, and the risk that we run is that advisors will get replaced by computers or something. On computers will biggest decisions on grade point averages and something and make a purely statistical calculation. And therefore this is the choice that you should make. Like I said earlier, we work with human beings, and just because someone is an a star student, or, you know, really high achieving, that doesn't mean that they haven't got their challenges that comes with it. And, you know, AI sometimes doesn't see that the a star student is working three jobs, and is a single parent, and, you know, is a foster carer and volunteers at this particular thing. It doesn't take in that kind of life circumstance as well it can, if you program it in. But ultimately, it's an artificial intelligence trying to make a decision, and that can't be replaced, or, I don't think anyway, currently, whether it's positive or negative, I don't know, but there is still a need for people. There's still a need for human intervention. And I think in many cases, our role as advisors is kind of safe in that sense. But yeah, some sort of some upskilling of staff, and whether that's starting institutionally, at making sure that what we try to do in our center is make sure that all of our advisors go to the institutional training, which, I mean, I'm partly responsible for. So I guess that's an easy one to kind of implement, but that we make sure that we also go to, you know, healthy relationships training or EDI or DEI, or kind of variations on that kind of acronym of quality, diversity, inclusion, that you just do a little bit more so that should a student come to you can say, Well, I appreciate your circumstances. I personally am not the best, but my colleague who sits next door has done the particular training, and with your permission, we could get them on board or get them to have a chat with you all the way up then to, like I said, some sort of, maybe not necessarily globally recognized, although that would be, that would be the pipe dream of some sort of post nominal, you know, identifier that kind of says when you're working with a person. That has these letters, or whatever you are, at a safe pair of hands, because they have been through certain standards and internationally recognized type of qualification and quality assurance that you know, and I know, at kind of internet, or say, local, but you know, things like the NACADA and UKAT have that kind of professional recognition, but there is variation across, you know, across the world, so something like that, I think would be, would nice to see it would be a good kind of long term goal for for the sector, and I think it would again kind of re emphasize the value that we have as as as practitioners in those roles that we do.

Matt Markin  
Definitely agree with that. I think that'd be fantastic goals. Fingers crossed. It happens, but I think this leads right into our last question. This is for everyone and Melinda, I'll throw it to you first, anyone that wants to jump in after, but in times of institutions facing major cutbacks, resources, budgets, how do we still find optimism going forward?

Melinda Anderson  
Yes, how do we find joy in our work? I think, you know, when I was listening to Iris point about connecting with the student, right? You know, how do we center our work on the student? I, you know, I oftentimes find myself saying, you know, the value of higher education, the value of education overall, right, lies in the human condition. You know, people want to change their lives. How do we find optimism in this time? When I think about the student walking across the stage for commencement, right, when you see the parents cheering, or the student that tears up, right? The student that looks at you and says, Because of you, I am right, the tears are falling. You know, I think of those moments when you say to yourself, it's worth it, you know, the long nights thinking about that student, when you're in the classroom and you're you're supporting that student who might have been struggling, the student who felt overwhelmed. You know, when I think about, how do you find joy in your work? I think that you number one, have to remember that it's these things are seasons, right? We've been in this work a long time. I mean, my when I first, you know, kind of gave my overview of this bio. I've been in higher ed. I started when I was 12. Let me just start there. I've been in higher ed for over 25 years, right? And these things are seasonal. You know what I mean? We have highs and lows. We've been dealing with budgets and cutbacks. You know, enrollment growth for a while. And when I think about, how do you find joy and optimism, it is always remembering that things are ebbs and flows. It's always been about the student, commencement and celebration of the work of the student, the colleagues that are with you and around you always bring a certain level of lift and light in your life. You know, I'm looking here on all these screens, and we're here to to give hope to our colleagues who are continuing to do this work. And so I think about those things in the times when, when things get hard, the other thing that I think about too when I think about the value of an education is how it does change people's lives. The idea of having a degree is not the goal anymore, right? It's the degree that gets you the position or the role the job, or to get you to graduate school that then gets you the position or the job or the career that creates generational wealth, right, that allows you to take care of your family, right, that continues to move you forward in your life. And I think that sometimes we lose sight of that when we start just talking about retention and persistence. You know, it's not just having the degree in hand, right? It's about the generational wealth that we're trying to create so our families continue to grow strong, and I think sometimes we lose sight of that when we are looking at the numbers of who stayed right. And I always tell people, it's not just that they came back, but what condition did they come back in? And it's not just a student who survived, but are they thriving, you know? And so it's like we need to start having different conversations about students. And so when we talk about, did they graduate, but graduate to To what end, right? And so I think that's what gives me a sense of purpose with this work that we're doing. And so when I think about what makes me optimistic, you know, are we creating better strategies and structures to continue to move this work forward? Are we strengthening our profession and what are we looking at across the field for promising practices, right? Not best practices, because it depends on our ecosystems and the environments in which we're growing and working in. And I love this conversation right now about international collaboration with personal tutors and advisors. So, Declan, I love your point about, you know, Are there standards right that hold true across the world for the work the way that we're doing our work, so that when we say that this is who we are in terms of how we support student success, that we have outcomes in the way that we're measuring our work, and we have standards, and so I'm just these are the things for me that keep me optimistic, because even though we know that we have work to do, we know that it's good work that matters. So I'm hoping that I'm hitting all those points, because when I think administratively, institutions have a responsibility to their students. I think as professionals, we have a responsibility to the field. But I think at the end of the day, philosophically, when we think about, why would you even pursue an education, and the value in education, I think that we can't lose sight as to why people pursue degrees and how they do change and transform people's lives. So that's what keeps me optimistic in times like these. 

Declan McLaughlin  
Thanks for that, Melinda, kind of, kind of, kind of inspiring, really, one of the things that I find optimism in. And I again, from just my own background, I did a lot about volunteer work with kids and young people when I was kind of a student myself, and they said, celebrate the small wins and the successes. So it's it's beauty in the small things. I'm not seeing that entire ladder, that entire ladder, I should say, you know about the graduation that's about each rung of the ladder. It's getting a student the degree to get their job, or to get their post grad, to get them the role at this position, to help them to climb that ladder, to get financial stability, and so on, just like you said, Melinda, so I have a quote in my room from my Catholic school boy upbringing, never get tired of doing the little things for others. Sometimes it's those little things that occupy the biggest part of their hearts, and I think it's important not to lose sight of that, that the small wins that we get every day, of getting that student in for a meeting is just as important of seeing them graduate in 234, years time. And it's, it's, I think, giving yourself a pat on the back every now and again that we are doing, I include my colleagues here, but everyone that's listening as well, or maybe picking this up at a later date that we are doing good jobs. I don't think we would be doing these positions if it was not something that we had an interest in, or some sort of care or responsibility or kind of, you know, there's something inside us that makes us want to do this, and particularly if it's a role that we keep coming back to that keeps us constantly making us want to do this. So it's, it's, it's beauty and the small things, it's the small wins that the everyday successes that we see are sometimes more important than those kind of bigger picture, bigger picture items.

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, optimism is a perspective, and both Declan and Melinda have sort of spoken to that idea that, you know, we can lose sight of, or what we pay attention to. And you know, for me, I find a lot of optimism in the history of further or higher education, knowing that there have been people in our spots answering these questions since way before we have published histories. As long as there have been people learning and there have been people teaching, there have been questions that go beyond the curriculum, and there have been roles that have worked in third spaces, or might be thought of as scholar practitioners, or whatever we might call them today, there have been people doing these things for much longer than we have and for much longer than we will. There will always be this need, and being connected to that heritage helps me stay optimistic. There have been all kinds of challenges on a global scale, at an institutional level, even in the department that have been weathered, people have risen to meet all the ways that they can be navigated. This has been happening, and it isn't entirely up to me to solve all of the problems and to make it all make sense. All that's up to me is that I give it my best and that I'm willing to find inspiration from maybe even unconventional spaces. When everyone was answering the question of one innovation in higher education, I was thinking about just remove the financial aspect. I think it was the noted philosopher Christopher Wallace. You might know him as a Notorious BIG he said, more money, more problems. We've been trying to figure this out, and if we could just take that pressure off, maybe we'd be more optimistic. Certainly, there's plenty of research that shows that money doesn't help with every problem, but if we're willing to remember. Our history, and we're willing to embrace unconventional aspects, for inspiration and for motivation. It's pretty easy to remain optimistic about this work. 

Iris Burks  
Thank you. Difficult to add on to this. There's so many great things said already, and I want to tap into the to connect to the connection element, where we're really feel that, that that's where our strengths lies. That's what I think a lot of our work with our students lies in, and I think it also provides an anchor for the future to connect with one another, to connect with people who are like minded, have similar ambitions for our students, and let's center our students also in our future perspectives. And what I've noticed in the past few months in the Netherlands, there's quite a few budget cuts hanging across our heads. And what I noticed is that we're really rallying together, and people are standing up for higher education, and I think that is very important to see how it also validates how important it is what we do, and it also makes things more significantly visible to society. I think it's not unimportant to forget showing to society what our relevance is higher education is, and doing that together, I think only strengthens that. And if we can then include our students in that, then I think we top it all off. Thanks.

Matt Markin  
So wonderful way to end all these questions for this panel, Ryan, you mentioned about money, but someone also said that money is not everything, but it ranks right up there with oxygen. So there are a lot of challenges, a lot of complexities, but you all have provided a lot of expertise, maybe various different solutions and ideas to consider. So Iris Declan Melinda Ryan, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Thank you. You're very welcome.

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, I think for those who stuck around to the end, thank you so much. It's the I can't state again, how thankful I am to be here and in this role. But these perspectives, these voices, I hope that they can have an effect and and I hope you're listening to other episodes of this podcast, because what a wealth of knowledge and perspectives and just listening to colleagues and educators from around the world, why they do the work that they do, how they do the work that they do, that's why this podcast is here and and I'm excited for what the future means for so many more adventures to be shared, and can't wait to see what's next.