Actionable Advising: Helping Students Using Academic Coaching - Adventures in Advising

In this inspiring episode, David Smith, Advising Specialist at Jefferson College, shares his remarkable 30+ year journey through higher education—from community college student to music professor to mentor and administrator. David dives into his work with the Region VII Mentoring Program and the power of academic coaching. Discover how tools like the action brainstorming worksheet help students turn goals into reality, and why seeking help early is key to success. Whether you're a student, advisor, or educator, this episode is packed with insight, heart, and practical takeaways. 

Follow the podcast on your favorite podcast platform!

The Instagram, and Facebook handle for the podcast is @AdvisingPodcast

Also, subscribe to our Adventures in Advising YouTube Channel!

Connect with Matt and Ryan on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hey, and welcome back to the adventures in advising podcast as always. This is Matt Markin, and we have another exciting episode for you today. Our guest today is David Smith from Jefferson College. David Smith has been in higher education for over 30 years as an admissions counselor, music professor and an academic administrator for several community colleges in Kansas, Missouri and Nebraska. David has served Jefferson college since March 2021 as an advising specialist working with STEM and Fine Arts and Humanities transfer students. David also currently serves as president of the Missouri Academic Advising Association. He has given presentations on goal, success, attainment and academic coaching at state and regional conferences. David and his wife Audrey, have seven grown children and 14 grandchildren. Very cool. David, welcome to the adventures and advising podcast.

David Smith  
Thank you, Matt. I'm happy to be here. And I should also say we have, we're expecting a great grandchild in June.

Matt Markin  
Whoa. Well, yeah, early, congrats to you. 

David Smith  
Thank you. We're looking forward to that, definitely 

Matt Markin  
Large household. 

David Smith  
Then, yes, it is.

Matt Markin  
So we were talking right before we started. I know typically we go into talking about your background, which we will, but you were sharing with me that, and by the time this gets posted, the region conference you'll be attending probably will have already passed. But sure with listeners about what's upcoming for you, but what have already passed once this podcast episodes goes live about a presentation or a concurrent session you're doing,

David Smith  
Sure. So I it's this presentation is about the mentoring program for Region seven. This was started two years ago. And really it's, it's kind of because other regions have mentoring programs. And so I think that the steering committee decided, well, we need to have one. And so essentially, people sign up to either be mentors or mentees, and then whether the coordinator or the program matches the mentors with the mentees. And so typically, they get at least one. Most of the time they get two. So I decided, because I had been in higher education for a long time and had several different kinds of roles. I really wanted to be able to share some of my experiences and knowledge with someone else, hoping it would, it would be helpful for them. So I signed up to be a mentor. And the first year, I had two mentees. This past year, I just had one. I had I started out with two, and then one of them, for scheduling reasons, had to drop out of the program. So I had one the the two that I had the first year, one is was from Washington University, which is in St Louis, just north of where I work and live. And then the other one is works at the University of North Texas, in Denton, and so she is going to do this presentation with me as a as the mentee. So it's kind of what we're doing is I'm kind of showing how I approached this project as a mentor, and then she's going to say, well, here's how it worked for me as a mentee and so, and we're going to include the the some information from the from the person I I've worked with this past year. She's not able to attend the conference, but she's sending in some information for so. So I'm presenting with a young lady named Mary Paradoski. She works in the College of Business at the University of North Texas, and then our other, our other kind of shadow presenter. Her name is Evelyn irgoin, and she works at Garden City Community College, which is way out in western Kansas. She works in the TRiO program out there. So we're really looking forward to this, because we want more people to join. In fact, this this past, this for this next cohort, we have more people sign up for this in any other year previous. So we're looking forward to hopefully that we can gather some more support for this, because it's really a good program. I get this as much out of, if not more than anybody else does in the process. 

Matt Markin  
So you were mentioning about having many years in higher ed, and we kind of heard a little bit from your bio. But David, can you expand upon that? Kind of give us your origin story, your path in higher ed?

David Smith  
Sure. So I, I'm from Kansas. I was born and raised there. I've also, I've lived in Nebraska and Colorado and Wyoming and Missouri also. And I started, I was, I was a student at a community college. The community college that all of my high school classmates typically went to was just down the road from us them, and I tell students today that my tuition and fees back then were $15 per credit hour, and I had scholarships that covered all of that, so I went to school basically for free for two years. So then I got my bachelor's degree at Southwest Baptist University, which is actually here in Missouri. It's north of Springfield, and. And my bachelor's degree is in music. And so my my intent was, was to go back to the community college where I went as a student to be the vocal music professor. And eventually I ended up eventually doing that, but I took a rather circuitous route to get there. So after I finished my master's, my bachelor's degree, I went to graduate school of Pittsburgh State University. I was the choral assistant there, and I got a master's degree in Community College Teaching, and then I got a My first job after that was as a recruiter, as an admissions counselor, which was great. I mean, I really didn't know a whole lot about how to recruit. And back then. This was in 1991 this is before we had internet available to all of us. In fact, I didn't have a computer on my desk until probably the last two or three months that I worked there, and it really was more of an intra net thing. First email ever sent was, I think, was to one. It was to our IT guy, and I said something about the fact that he that he looked like Jimmy Stewart, something like that, anyway. But so my, my first week there, I had a list of students I had to contact. They were on the what was the rolling paper with the green stripes? Can't remember what that is. Adopt matrix printers. Adopt matrix print out of 200 students. So I had, and of course, I had to, this was in December, so I had to hand sign 200 Christmas cards that week and to get them sent. So it was a it was quite a bit of a different world, but I learned so much about recruiting. It really helped me when I started teaching full time. And so after that job, I went to up to Highland, Kansas, which is in up in northeast Kansas, to the community college up there with the vocal music teacher for about two and a half to three years. And boy, that that admissions experience was so valuable, and learning how to how to contact students, what that, what I needed to talk with them about, and so on. From there, I I kind of took an aside from higher ed for a couple years. I did. I was a minister of music at a at a fairly decently sized church in the in the Kansas City area. For a couple of years, went back into higher education and went to to KU as a doctoral student, I taught part time. I worked at a community college as a as a supervisor in the evenings. Then after that is when I really started teaching full time for for good, at least for the time that I taught for 13 years at Neosho County Community College, which is in Chanute, which is in Southeast Kansas, that's really where I got most of my teaching and administrative experience, because I started, I was a division chair for a year there. Really enjoyed, and I made so many good friends there, learned a lot did I wasn't perfect, made a lot of mistakes, too. And it was from there that I determined I was going to look at doing being administrator. So just so happened that down the road from Chanute, pretty close to where we lived, where we lived there in Kansas, at the time, the college there was looking for Dean of Instruction, and so I applied. And so happened that the the vice president for academic affairs had been at Neosho County was, she was one of our administrators there. So So I had an in Route on that job, and I was there for a couple years, and then the vocal music job opened up at the college where I was a student. So I did that. I did that for two years, and then took early retirement, went and did a few other things outside of education, decided that that was not what I wanted to do, and I wanted to get back into education, but I didn't want to be in the classroom anymore. I was, I was kind of done with that on a full time basis anyway. Well, what if I work in Student Services? So I looked for positions in admissions, because I've done that already, and then I look for positions in advising, because I've done advising all the way through my faculty experiences, even though it wasn't a full time I had, you know, I knew how to enroll students, I knew about degree planning and and those kinds of things. And so with this job, I applied, and it got an interview in January. This was like in the middle of COVID. So, so the interview was on Zoom and and then I had a second interview with with Jefferson, and then they, they hired me on Valentine's Day, and I started on March 1. And I've been here nearly four years, and I have to tell you, Matt, of all the experiences I've had in higher education, and most of them have been very good. This has been the best. Yeah, the people I work with, we all get along and we just don't get along. I think we all have a genuine affection for each other that is very friendly. We don't agree on everything, but we know how to talk about things. And I just, I've just been very impressed with how our department, our we have, our advising offices, are in one end of the hall, financial aid is on the other end of the hall. And they're this probably the best financial aid people I've ever worked with. And they're, you know, they they know how to work with students. They're positive. They're. Are, they're friendly. They're just, you know, this is overall, this has been a great experience. It's not been perfect. We have our, you know, we have our issues, but, but by and large, we I've really enjoyed this experience. And I'm working with the students on this side of the of the equation, you know, helping them not just plan their degrees, but trying to help them succeed, which is which kind of led me into the academic coaching arena. You know, in Nakata, we had, there is an academic coaching community, and so I joined that when I joined NACADA several years ago, and really got a lot of good information about that, which kind of led me into doing presentations on academic coaching. So I did that for our state makata conference. I did again at the region it was selected as best in conference for that year. So I got a I got a paid trip to New Orleans for the region four seven conference last February to do that presentation. And then I also got to do it for our State Community College Association back in November. So, you know, when I looked at coaching, I realized, well, I've been doing this for years, you know, because when you teach students individually, which, which, I did a lot of that. You know, when you're a music teacher, you teach private lessons in the credit arena. We call that applied music. And so you work with students a lot, with individually so, you know, and a lot of what I did was really what, what coaching is about you, you know, you determine a plan of success with some goals. You you you create a plan to meet those goals, and then you manage the plan while you're, while you're working toward it. It's so it's like my friend Tasha Urich says, you know, it's, it's not so much the end result. It's really what happens in between the start and the finish. How, how much have you learned in the process, and how much do you grow in the process as a student? And so that is really what has has attached me to the whole coaching profession. So right now, I am working on a Doctor of Education Degree from the American College of Education, which is an online graduate school housed in or based in Indiana, and it's in leadership. And I want to do my my research, my dissertation research on coaching, life coaching, academic coaching, executive coaching, leadership coaching, because I that it really is, in many ways, it's just the way I've taught for years. So that's really why I'm accustomed to it, and why I feel so passionate about it. And within that, is kind of I approached my mentoring process in the mentoring program as a coach. So when I start with it with a mentee. I say, Okay, this is what kind of how we're going to do this, and you're going to direct this process. I'm just here to walk alongside you like a coach would, and to make sure that you stay, you know, on the path that you've created, and if we need to make changes, I'll help you do that. But basically, this is your plan, not mine. I don't create it for you. You're the one that creates it, and I help you along the way.

Matt Markin  
Yeah. And it kind of connects when you were when we had talked prior to this recording, you had mentioned, like, like, like, a football game and a coach, you know, where the coach is, you know, walk with a student, as if a football game, and a coach is walking with the player on the sidelines.

David Smith  
There is a great video of a clip from a movie called, is it fighting the Giants? Something I have to, have to look for anyway. There's a there's a great video. The video, the name of the video clip is called the Death crawl. And so it's a scene in this movie where this football coach is in a he's he's coaching in a private Christian school, and the players just really aren't into it. They're, you know, they're kind of lackadaisical. So he's trying to instill in them that they can actually win games. So they have this drill that they do called the Death crawl. So he gets one of the larger players when the defensive tackles to crawl on his, not on his hands and knees, on his on his hands and his feet while he's got one of his teammates on his back. And so what he decides to what the coach decides to do is he puts a blindfold on this, on this tackle, and says, Okay, you only have to carry this guy 20 yards. So he starts to carry, and he's coaching him as he's going along. Don't quit. Don't quit. Don't quit. And he actually goes the entire length of the field, and doesn't realize it until he's there. You know, he takes his blindfold off and he says, See, you're in the end zone, and you didn't realize it. And you know, what did you learn through that whole process? And keep, you know, to keep going, to keep fighting, to keep striving, to keep learning. And that really is a great analogy of an illustration of how the academic coaching process goes. I mean, I don't, I'm not going to make my students do a death crawl, and that's not the idea. But the idea is, what you know to help you succeed, what I need to do is to encourage you to keep going. You know, to you. To there's a worksheet I have them do called the action brainstorming worksheet, where they in their goals. They have a table that says, okay, to reach this goal. I need to stop doing this. I need to do less of this. I need to start doing this. I need to do more of this, and then I need to keep doing this. And they have a table with, you know, and so for my mentees, especially, that's a living document. I mean, they update that every time we meet. And when I meet with my academic coaching students, you know, they update that as well. So that just kind of helps them keep going, which is really what, at least the students that I talk to, that's really what they need. I mean, a lot of them come in and they they're discouraged because college isn't quite what they thought it was going to be. And, you know, it's different than high school. We all know that we've been, we've been through that. We know that for sure, but, but it's, it's really different for them. I mean, an example might be the and I don't know, maybe you find this true too, Matt, where you are, but the there is a little more resistance for our students to take courses online, because they've been through that with COVID. Now we're kind of, we're kind of edging out of that, because the COVID students are kind of now grad, at least in our area, because we're a two year college, they're kind of moving on now, but, but a lot of students said, I don't want to take any online classes, because I've been through that. Now, our online classes are not the kind of online classes they took in high school, and it's not structured the same. But still, there's some resistance to that. And so, you know, and they, you know, they may start out in the first two weeks or three and and they'll email me and said, this class is awfully hard. Yeah, it is, but it's the class that you need. So here's what I need to do to try to help you succeed. So here are the resources I need to point you to and and maybe you find this true also, but I've had, there are too many students I have that are sit across from me late in the semester, wishing they had asked for help for a class calculus is one of those, and it's too late for them to withdraw, because we have, we have a, you know, a date where They can't withdraw afterwards, and it's too late, and they end up, you know, either getting a, you know, barely passing grade or failing. And I, you know, I'm not sure how I can help them, and so I try to stress to every new student especially, do not be afraid to ask for help. That is not a sign of weakness. And the first person you ask is your professor and and then I talk with them about how to communicate with their professors, and they talk about this in college, 101, but having been one for years, and typically, as a as an instructor myself, my door was always open. The only time it was ever closed was when I had was having a private conversation with someone, or if I was grading finals, I usually close my door then, but typically My door is open. But that's not true for every every faculty member. So you know, what I tell my students is, if you need to talk with your instructor that don't try to catch them before, right before, right after class, because their mind is not where it needs to be for you. Yeah, what you need to do is either go see them during their office hours, which they have really have no idea what office hours mean. You try to cover this in orientation. That's where they're, you know, one administrator I worked with said, you know, we, this is where we pay the faculty to sit in their office and do nothing with you know? And it may not be that extreme, but really that's they're supposed to be available during those times, or make an appointment so that the instructor has your full attention, and then the next person you talk to is me, you know, either make an appointment with me or or call me or email me something so that I can point you to some resources that you need to get the help that you need. So how effective that is? I don't have any way of gaging that right now. I probably should come up with some way of figuring out how many students actually ask for help, and how many actually get the help and actually use the help that they're given. If they go to we do more math tutoring than any other subject. I don't know. Maybe if that's true, in your case, we have two professional tutors that that's all they do is tutor math and then we have peer tutors. But I really want students to know that it's all right for them to ask for help. They're not in this alone. Now we don't do the work for them, and I make that pretty clear, but you know, we're committed to trying to help them succeed as best we can. 

Matt Markin  
I think it's also just students realizing they need help because, you know, we go over lots of during orientation, and kind of similar to you, you're telling students, yeah, ask for help if you need the help. But I think there are some students that, yeah, they might. Be nervous and scared to talk to the professor or come and talk to their advisor or an academic coach. But others, it's almost by the time they realize, Oh yeah, I probably should have asked for help. Then yeah, then it's too late, and then that's when they show up in your office. And on one hand, it's like, I appreciate you coming in. Keep doing this, but maybe next time, if it does happen, let's do it a little bit earlier. Let's see how we can possibly salvage the grade at this point. But let's go over all all different scenarios. 

David Smith  
Precisely. And lately, I've been been telling them, ask for help before you think you need it, because that's usually when you do need it. I mean, you know, to try to be a little bit proactive. That's not my favorite word, but that's really what it is. I mean, you know, don't be afraid, because there are, I mean, if you look at your, you know, you sit in a typical history class and you got 30-35, students in there. Look at, look at every student that's in there. And all of them with with rare, rare exception, are going to want help in there. Look at they. Look in the calculus class, what I find that. I don't know what areas you typically advise Matt but, but I have discovered that in for my engineering students, they struggle the most with calculus too. I'm not sure why that is because I'm not as familiar perhaps with the curriculum as maybe I should be. I'm not. My math interests are more in statistics, in calculus, but there's just something about Calc Two that that's really kind of difficult hump for them to get over. And I know with me as a music student, I thought of the music theory sequence that I took. I thought music theory two was the most difficult. So maybe something about the two that's there, I don't know. But, you know, I just had, I've had too many that sit across from me and say, you know, I don't know what to do about my grade. And I just have to tell them, Well, you know, we talked about this at the beginning of the semester. We talked about this when we enrolled, that whenever you need help, you need to ask. I can't help you if I don't know what you need. And so I, I don't, I can't do it for them as much as sometimes we would like to. I have to put some of the onus on them, because it's their education. It's not mine, and they're the ones that, in many ways, own it, and so they're the ones that kind of need to maintain it as much as they can, which is kind of where coaching comes in. And I don't get to do a lot of that, because it's a rather involved process, even even as short term as it is. I, you know, I think of coaching in least for academic purposes, and what I do, I that's more of a short term project as we're looking at one particular goal, studying effectively for this particular test. What is it that you need to know? How do you need to organize your notes? I remember having a student, I had her show me my notes, or her notes in a biology class, they were perfect. I mean, they were she had no idea how to use them. She had highlighted some things. So I said, Why did you highlight this? I don't know. I just thought I needed to. So we had to work on, okay, taking the information that you got, which is great. Now, how do we organize it for you to succeed on this next exam? Yeah, I had a student who decided he had to give up the habit of, while he's doing homework, watching YouTube shorts. And, you know, he said that, want to make that a reward for 30 minutes of studying. So, you know, that's, that's really where coaching comes in. And I wish I could do that with more students. I just, you know, I have right now, my caseload is about 250 it was about three, a little over 300 but we took, they took one of my majors away and gave it to somebody else. So I can't really do that with all 250 of my students. So I, when I, when I have conversations with them, and if they say something like, you know, I really struggle with taking tests, that's a perfect coaching opportunity right there, because I don't one thing. I don't want them to hide behind that. Now, if they have a, if they have a documented disability, then, you know, that's, that's something different. But I mean, if they're, if that's something that they're really using as kind of, I don't want to say a crutch, but a kind of something to hide behind. That's a perfect coaching opportunity. Okay, look, I can help you with how to take tests, because I've taken them, a lot of them, and I've given a lot of them so and I can help you organize your notes so that that studying becomes more effective. You have a whole list of different study methods that you can choose from. So that's kind of how I get my my coaching students is basically on what they say to me in a conversation.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and I guess that's a question too. Like trying to find, how do you balance that, where it's like, okay, you have your caseload, you have your meetings with with your students, on your caseload based on those conversations. And they might say something that triggers you, where it's like, okay, I can definitely implement some academic coaching here, but I would imagine, too that that also takes time. So how do you balance all that within a certain time frame of working with these students, especially in when you have a case, when you have these students you have to meet with, but then, depending on when they do meet with you. Are you having followed appointments with these students as well? Right?

David Smith  
So that's an excellent question. So normally, coaching happens after the semester begins. You know, maybe after the first couple of weeks, two or three weeks, and at that point, our enrollment period is typically over. So we have a we have a space of depending on what semester it is between when our, let's just say, for this semester. So our semester enrollment really ended two weeks ago. So there's a period of two weeks there where I'm doing other things with my case code, like we have an early alert system, so I deal with those we have right now, we have what's called a first quarter feedback project where faculty can give feedback on every student, if they want to, or specific students that are having trouble. So we follow up on that. Those are both. Both of those are great prompts for getting with someone and say, look, I can help you with with this, with this particular problem, if you will allow me, I don't force myself when I'm offering this service to you, because that's what I want to do to help you succeed. And then if they, if they take that, if they say, yes, let's do that. Typically, the coaching process is about maybe three to four weeks with meetings every week. Now that Now, normally those meetings, I like to have them face to face, but a virtual meeting will work. All right, I typically don't like to do it over the phone or email. That just doesn't work very well, because I like to have the I can be able to see the person when I'm talking with them. But, you know, we meet, first thing we do is determine, Okay, here's what, here's what we need to work on, and then we develop a plan. And so that plan really lasts for the next two or three weeks. Here are some steps you need to take. I have them do the I have them, you know, brainstorm some goals. I have them brainstorm some actions that they need to do and stop doing, and so on. And then when we meet in subsequent meetings, I asked them about those. So you said you were going to do this. So how is that working out for you? You said you're going to stop doing this. Have you stopped doing that? So, so I bring to them a little bit of a measure of accountability in a friendly way. I mean, I don't, you know, I'm not a I'm I don't crack the whip or anything, but, but in in that activity, what I one thing I want to do, really, is hold their feet to the fire if they said they were going to do this then, and then they didn't. You know, the reason I want to know why is not to chide them, but to say what you know, is there something else we can do, or is there some other direction we need to go? So, you know? And maybe after three weeks, that's when the test occurs and they're done. And if they want to work on something else, they choose something else to work on. But the the coaching thing doesn't take really all that much time. You know, as long as I stay on top of what, because I take notes, I have a form that I use, that I take notes on, and I do that with my with my in my mail, in my own private coaching practice where, you know, where I've coached them, live coaching, and I've done leadership coaching. I have a form that I fill out, and I use a lot of those materials for my academic coaching. I have an intake form. I have a I have this action brainstorming worksheet. I have a list of study things, and so, so I'm kind of, I kind of know what I'm doing with that, so I know how to stay on top of things, and what I need to, what I need to prepare for the next meeting, and then, and then we need to bring it to a close. If we don't do that, then, you know, it's not, this is not something we do week by week by week by week for the whole semester, because it doesn't really work very well that way. 

Matt Markin  
So, you mentioned, like, there's, you know, certain forms you fill out intake forms. The Do you have the students fill out any forms or writing down anything? 

David Smith  
So I send them an intake form. It's you, it's a Word document that that has text boxes they can type in and fill out. And then the the identifying their goals, is another word document they can just type right in. And then the the brainstorming worksheet the table. I should really send these to you so you can see them. This table I actually got from from it's actually a free form that I found on a coaching site that has a lot of free form. This has been such a great tool for me, but it's just like an Excel table, and I, so I make it as a as a document that they can type into. And then they, you know, as we're working, they send the intake form to me, and there are questions on there. Like one question is, if you were to trust me enough for me to coach you, what are two things I can say to you when you are stuck? So those. That helps me to know how I can communicate better with the student, because, because I know what to say when they're stuck things like that. So they tell me about their situation, that what they want to work on and and so on. And I kind of keep that in a I have a Google Drive, and I have a folder that I keep all that in, and that's what I refer back to that at every coaching meeting. And then the form. Now, the form that I fill out myself is something I keep for my own personal information, just so I have a record of what we talked about, so that I can bring that but because that because I also we also have action steps that we do, I know in in other coaching situations and also in therapy and counseling, they have homework. I typically call those action steps, our action Yeah, action steps rather than homework. So things they have to do before the next meeting, but they kind of decide what those things are based on how their how their goal is going, and what their habits are, yeah, so, but I type that into my form that I keep so that I can refer back to that at the next meeting. Gotcha, I'll send all that stuff to you, Matt, so you can kind of take a look at 

Matt Markin  
Yeah, please do now you do academic coaching, you do life coaching. So I am curious with this. Is there? Do you find that, what would you say might be some of the similarities, but maybe, if any differences between academic coaching and life coaching?

David Smith  
Academic coaching in in the way I do it, and, you know, in other college settings, they have what you know, what are called Student Success Coaches. And so these are people who stay with that student through their entire matriculation, so and so, they do a lot of not just academic things, but they do a lot of life coaching. They they kind of, they'll, they'll talk with the student about, okay, so what's your living arrangement like, and is that working out for you? Do we need to look at something else? What's your work situation like? How many hours are you working per week? And how can we, how can we, how can we make that work for you, as well as your academic so, so that's that is a very good way of doing academic coaching. My college doesn't have a college has a coaching program. This is something I do kind of on my own. So it's really that is really more of a focused activity with life coaching, I approach it very much the same way, because I approach it in a, in a in a goal, success oriented view. So with life coaching, when I work with someone and in leadership coaching, I will use pretty much the same tools and very much the same intake form, with some exceptions, especially with I have a separate mentoring one, I have a separate leadership coaching one. I've worked with a couple of of brand new administrators at other at other colleges in Missouri in leadership coaching, just to get the experience. But it's very much the same kind of process. You know, I work with them and say, Okay, what is it that you're what? What is the issue we need to work on? First? I may, they may choose three things, if it's a typical life coaching deal, where they may do things, okay, what's, what's the one we need to work on right now? And so let's devise a plan to where it's so really, it's one thing at a time. That's kind of how academic coaching is for me now, with the mentoring project, this is something that goes on for the entire year, so I have them, we actually, I have them select three goals that they need to work on, and then maybe two or three secondary goals that once, if they've met one of their primary goals, then we'll move one of those secondary goals up into the primary area and start working on that. And so that's more of an ongoing process within that's why, on that action brainstorming worksheet, that's a living document for them, that's really the main tool that I use with them. I have other things that I'll, that I will give them some other resources that I've found in other coaching situations, depending on what it is that they're working on. I'll, I'll send them stuff. But primarily I work with that, with that brainstorming worksheet, because it just that that just seems to be working the best in the situations I'm working in. But, but to go back to your question, life coaching and academic coaching to me, are very similar in that I work on goal success, goal attainment and success. And what is it that you are learning between the start and the finish? So when we do kind of the debriefing afterwards. That's what I'll ask. So what did you learn about yourself in this process? What did you learn about this the skill that you were working on? Did you think you grew in that? Can we, you know, we've measured it this way? Do you think you can apply this now to other things that you're doing? Because that's really what we need to be able to do. So So there, there are a lot of similarities. The differences, of course, are with life coaching. It's not necessarily just academic things. I mean, it could be I need to be more diligent in doing my housework, or, you know, I need, I want to read more. So how, what do I need to do to. To if I want to read, you know, three books a month. Well, how do I even accomplish that? Well, you have to, you have to carve out time for that. So I, you know, I'll tell students, do you need help working with time? This is new, you know, for a lot of new students, you know, they don't, they've been used to going to class all day, every day, right? You're not doing that when you're in college. I had to learn a lot of that the hard way, and I failed a lot. I mean, I didn't fill any classes, but I have to be honest with you, Matt, there are a lot of classes that, you know, I didn't, I wasn't accountable, so I just didn't go, yeah, and I paid for that eventually, you know, academically. But so we talk about that. This is, this is one thing that's different, another thing that's different. Another thing is different is you're taking semester long classes as opposed to year long classes, so everything is going to be compressed, and especially if you're taking summer classes, even going to be more compressed. So you've got to figure out, if you're working especially, how are you going to carve out time to study and do whatever reading and writing you need to do. So we those are things that that I work on with students as much as I can. I can't do, obviously, I can do with everybody, but, but I try to to be a little bit proactive in finding, in finding students who need that work, and then offering my service to them. 

Matt Markin  
It's almost like, yeah, based off your experience, you're able to implement this in your practice working with students. But as a advising specialist, specifically, what would you say like your responsibilities are? 

David Smith  
I have, so I advise all of all of that the students that I have are going to be transfer students, so they are working on either the Associate of Arts degree. Or we have, we have an Associate of Science degree in engineering and biology engineering, one one in engineering, one in biology. We're getting ready to have one in chemistry, and then we have associate of Fine Arts degrees in art and music. So all of those are designed for students to earn and then transfer to a four year institution. So, so one of the things I do is I work with the the faculty in my areas, along with the administrators, the associate deans and the Dean of Instruction in our academic area. As far as articulation agreements with our partner schools. For example, the largest transfer partner is the Southeast Missouri University, which is in Cape Girardeau, which is about an hour or so south of where I live. So it's about an hour and a half from from Hillsboro. So we work a lot with them on how our associate degrees transfer into their programs. But we have other Missouri Baptist universities, another strong partner in engineering, University of Missouri, science and technology in Rolla, it's that's how we really designed our Associate of Science degree in engineering. So, so part of my job is to help them start to navigate that transfer process. Because it can be, it can be daunting at times, depending on where you're going and what, what you're studying and so, so I work with them on that. I help them, you know, with their schedules. I will typically try to talk them out of withdrawing from a class, unless it's, you know, unless there's just no other answer for several reasons, one that affects their financial aid. We have a program here in Missouri called a plus specifically for call for community college students to to get their first two years done with their tuition paid by the state of Missouri. But there are some some restrictions on that. One is they have, there's a great point that they have to maintain. They have to complete 12 hours per semester if they retake a class. The the program doesn't pay for that. So so for that, for those reasons, as well as others, I typically want to make sure that that's exactly what they want to do, because it's not always in their best interest interest to withdraw from a class. So so I have those conversations with them, they already know, because I've told them in my initial conversations, if you want to withdraw from the class, I will probably try to talk you out of it, unless it's the only option you know, the last option. So we talk about that. I have, we have an early alert system where the faculty member says this, students not coming to class, or they're they have poor study habits, or what? So I reached out to that student say, Okay, what's going on? Are you having issues? And we have a we have a mechanism, or a group called the care team, which, if the students having some personal issues, I can refer them to this care team using the maxi reporting. I don't you use that or not. That's how, that's how we communicate with our with with our compliance office, if the student is having, you know, some personal issues, whether it's at home or at work, or if it's mental health, something along those lines, but that's something I kind of need to know a little bit about before I make a referral. And then I always tell students, you can always come and talk with me, but you kind of have to make an appointment, because I. Our offices are housed within Student Records, so we have to be behind the locked door, which that's one thing I do miss from being a faculty member or having an office out in a regular place, because there's no student traffic unless students are coming in with their advisors to their appointments. So I don't have anybody that actually comes by and says Hi, unless I happen to be out at the front desk. So, but I always encourage them, look, you can come and talk with me about anything. You can email me about anything. But there may be some things where you need to make an appointment, because it may be an extended conversation we have to have. So I wish I you know at a two year college, and I learned this as being a faculty member in an activity music. You only get them for a couple of years, usually, and so I try to to keep track of them after they leave. As much as I can. I can't do that with everybody, but as much as I can make a a more than just a professional relationship with them, if I can just kind of make a little bit of a personal tie with them, just ask how they're doing, find out how they're doing, help them with the transfer process, find out how they're doing with that and so on. That to me, I think I've I'm doing my job, and I really enjoyed, I didn't think I would enjoy it as much as I do. It's not, I mean, it's there are times when I'm thinking, Gosh, I don't know if I can cut out for this or not, but, but for the most part, because of the people I work with, the people I work with in the in the state of Missouri, through makata, the board that we have, they are awesome people. They have I'm an outsider because I'm from Kansas, you know, so So, and I haven't been in Missouri all that long. Most of our board members have been in Missouri all their lives, and so they know the ins and outs of how things work. And so I, I just typically, in my in my role as president, all I really do is kind of steer the boat. You know, they do most of the work. I just want to make sure that we're going in the right direction. And, and, and we, and I think we are, our organization is growing after the COVID, after the pandemic, kind of didn't a lot of our members as far as membership, but we're back, you know, to about 180 I think membership something like that. Or maybe, maybe, yeah, it's about 180 so, so I'm really happy about that and and not only that, our community college membership has gone up quite a bit, which is really something when I joined the board two years ago, that's really something I wanted to to work on, was getting more community college membership, and we've done that. So those people are just awesome. And so I give a shout out to to the my colleagues at Jefferson college and my colleagues in makata, and the people even I've worked with on region seven, I haven't worked with them all that much, but, but I enjoy getting to know them through the region meetings that I've been involved in, so it's just been a great experience for me. And, you know, I just really wasn't sure what to expect, but this really has been the best job I've ever had. And I've had a lot of good jobs, but this has been the best one. 

Matt Markin  
Well, let me ask you this. I mean, because you had, you had a pretty lengthy and good career in higher ed prior to the advising specialist role and in coming out of retirement, has your mentality changed at all, like with work and life pre retirement and post retirement?

David Smith  
Well, yes, if for no other reason. Before retirement, I was a, I was a teacher and an administrator full time, you know. Now I'm in student services, which is a, you know, which is a necessary arm of higher education, but it's, but there the the the philosophy may be a little bit different. I remember one conversation I had with a with my previous supervisor, who retired last year, and I don't remember what they what the actual issue was about, but she looked at me. She says, you know, you're treating this as if you were a faculty member. And I, and I thought, well, yeah, because that's really pretty much all I've done for most of my life. So so I've had to look at advising. You know, it's kind of I want the students to take responsibility for what they've chosen to do. I tell them over and over, I'm not going to do your work for you, and you shouldn't expect your teacher to do your work for you, but what my job is, once I get you in the place where you need to be, I need to be able to help you succeed to the extent that I can without actually doing your work for you. So that's why I kind of look at advising, in a way as being a coach. So I that's what I really enjoy about, is helping students succeed. Does every student succeed? No, and and it's in part because maybe sometimes I haven't done the things I need to do. In part is because the student just simply doesn't know how to succeed, because nobody has really walked alongside with them. Maybe this is a different experience for them. They're away from home. You know, even. Even if they still live at home, they're driving somewhere to school where they haven't been before, typically. So this is a, it's a culture shock. It was a culture shock for me when I was a student, and things were much different when I was a student and we didn't have computers. I remember the first, first computer I ever worked on was a, it was a radio shack, trs 80, and I was trying to teach myself the basic language, and I didn't succeed with that. So when I didn't ever took a computer class until I was in graduate school in the in the early 90s, and it was, it was on an Apple two Gs computer, and we learned how to use Apple works, you know. And I'm thinking, How did I ever type papers on a typewriter, even an electric typewriter so well? Now, you know, they have all kinds of technological aids that can use that I'm just not as familiar with this. I probably should be. I'm teaching a class this semester. I'm teaching music appreciation. Kind of happened at the last minute, and so they're using an E text, which I have never used. I, you know, I have a hard copy of the book, but I've never used an E text. So, so right now, I'm just kind of using the technology that I know about and that I know they know about to maybe when I teach at another time, I'll know more how to utilize the resources in that E text. But it really is, it different, and even within the past. I mean, I retired in 2018 so that's been less than 10 years ago. Even between then and now, it's it's much different technologically and the students, the students are always different, and they're different every year. I mean, there are some similarities, but they've all had different types of experiences that they they have to either use to their advantage or work through. And that I learned that just by talking with them, and maybe their parents, if they're there in the initial advising conversations. And a lot of times that's fascinating. Sometimes it's frustrating, especially when I when I have helicopter parents. And what was there was another one, another term I heard not long ago, oh, bulldozer parents, you know, that was, that's a new one, where it's, you know, they, they're not just hovering, they're, they're pushing the dirt, you know, so. But I think every class, a student, is different in some way. But there are some similarities. I just in my conversations with them. I have to in my notes. I kind of have to write in there, you know this, this is going to be a need here, and this is going to be something they're going to have to look at later. And you know, I might wrote note on their I know that they're going to, they say they're having trouble taking tests, so we might do some coaching later, and so on. But this has just been, this has been a great educational experience for me, because I use some of my teaching skill in the advising conversation as well.

Matt Markin  
Now, the one I heard about a few years ago, but I guess it's been around for a while, is like the the submarine parent, oh, the submarine parent, yeah, so that that's like a parent who's available to help their child when needed, so but yeah, try to help their child take charge of their lives and then help out if they need to jump in.

David Smith  
I don't know that, you know, because I, I mean, we put four of our kids through college, and it's very tempting to, especially when you're when you're a higher education professional, to go in and do it for them, but I think we, we successfully resisted that I know with with one of my kids, she washed out one semester. I mean, just washed out. And I was really that was difficult for me not to step in and and do something about it. But she that was something that she had to experience, and that was, it was really the best thing for her. And she, mean, she ended up graduating well, and she's got a good job, and she's, you know, she's, but she had to go through that, and I had to let her go through that. So, yeah, so as So, like I said, every every class is different. Parents, even though they have similar characteristics, they're different. They're going to approach a different a lot of them that I talked to have never been in college, so they really don't even know what to expect. So you have to be sensitive to that as well. Some of that, Matt, I think, is the language that we use, you know, because we, we're, you know, we use college speak around here, and they don't know what that means. So we have to couch it in terms of that everyone's going to understand, at least at the initially. But I think the student will need to acquire some of that language eventually, because they need to be able to direct some of their education, especially when they transfer. So, you know, that's just something that I try to kind of keep an eye on with 250 students. Sometimes that's quite difficult, but, but I, you know, again, I enjoy what I do. I am blessed to be where I am. I'm blessed to have the people that I work with, and they're just, you know, it's just, it's an awesome profession.

Matt Markin  
It's a perfect way to end the interview I just class at the time, and time has flown by. How. Had time, yeah, fascinating discussion. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. Chat about academic coaching, your background, life coaching, similarities, differences, students, all that good stuff. 

David Smith  
Well, thank you, Matt. I really do appreciate you having this conversation with me. And you, you do such good work. And we, we appreciate you so much in the work that you do. Thank you so much.