Sustaining Success: Lessons in Growth, Balance, and Longevity - Adventures in Advising

Gavin Farber from The College of New Jersey guest hosts this episode focusing on sustainability in higher education and academic advising. Jessica Staten from Indiana University and Dr. Rebecca Hapes from Texas A&M University discuss the importance of identities beyond your roles and the necessity of change for sustainability, underscoring the resilience and adaptability required in higher education roles. Hapes and Staten highlight the need for effective communication and empathy, as well as emphasizing the significance of self-care, setting boundaries, and continuous learning. They also advocate for documenting processes to ensure knowledge transfer in order to maintain efficiency. 

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
Welcome to another episode of The Adventures in advising podcast. On today's episode, we have a returning guest host, and that is Gavin Farber from the College of New Jersey. Gavin, last guest hosted episode 107 of the podcast titled embracing 10 years or more in academic advising, celebrating mid career resilience and growth. Gavin, welcome back and take it away.

Gavin Farber  
Thanks, Matt. I'm so excited to be back guest hosting adventures in advising. Today's topic is going to be Sustainability in Higher Education and advising, and we have an amazing group of folks coming on who have worked in the advising realm, possibly gone into an adjacent career or found other professional areas in advising to go into a lot of the conversation today has been inspired by some of the most recent publications that have come out in the higher ed world. Most recently, the next act realigning your mindset, purpose and career through NASPA, which was co written by Dr.  Jason Pina of NYU and Dr. Amy Heck from Florida State University. This is a great student affairs driven book that gave different adjacent career roles, but obviously from the advising world, two of the books I really pull from are from the 2023 academic advising administration book and the 20 22/3 edition of the comprehensive advisor training and development book. And I'm so happy to have both Jessica Staten and Dr. Rebecca Hapes. Come on today. Come on in, ladies, let's have a chat. 

Gavin Farber  
I kind of wanted to first kind of jump into asking a little bit of both your background, what role you currently have, and also a little bit about what inspired your higher ed career in general. And we'll start with Rebecca, and then we'll go Jess, and then we'll go back and forth a little bit. 

Rebecca Hapes  
Sounds great. Sounds great. So my current role, I'll start where I am, and then I'll jump backwards, just to give you an idea of where I'm headed. I am currently the Associate registrar at Texas A&M University, and I've been in this particular role a little over three years. And so my responsibilities here in the office involve FERPA, compliance, education, a lot of training and development with the advising staff on campus and other individuals who utilize technology that that functions from the registrar standpoint. So I get to do a lot of training, coordination and facilitating, but I also lead a team of folks who work on our websites and communication and so, you know, Gavin, you mentioned advisor adjacent roles. This is definitely one of those advisor adjacent roles, and I will say it, it was quite an identity shift right to take a role that wasn't advising. And so I'll jumping backwards a little bit. My very first higher ed position as a full time employee was in the office of admissions, and I opened up a new center on our campus working with prospective students. And it was a, what sort of a one stop shop, if you will, of exploring what going to college meant for these individuals, right? It was, what does the academics look like? What does the campus environment look like? How can I fit in? How can I belong? What can I get involved in? How can I helped to pay for it, and so we did a lot of work in that space, just trying to make sure people's questions got answered. So at that point in time, my role was very much a jack of all trades, as it related to my particular institution. After about three years of that, I really wanted the relationships with the students I loved getting to meet the students and their families, and then in a few months, they they had moved on. And so what I realized I really, really wanted, and didn't know that I wanted because I hadn't had the opportunity to experience it, but I really wanted the relationships. And so at that time, I moved into an advising role, and it was exactly what I realized that I wanted out of my profession at that time, right? I was really able to delve into relationships with students, meet them, where they were, help them to grow and advance, personally, professionally and navigate the hierarchy that is higher ed, right? And sometimes some folks need a little more help navigating that process than others, but it was a joyful career for me for nearly 20 years, and I. And then I realized, right, as many of us do, my identity was wrapped up in my title and in my role, which is a really scary place to be, and I don't actually recommend having your identity tied up in something that can be removed from you, right? Like that was a big learning journey for me, but what I also realize is at the heart, at the core of what I am about, I really want to see students succeed. I want to see students be successful, and part of that means helping train and prepare other professionals to support that work. And so when I made that mental shift for me, going to an advisor adjacent role made a lot of sense, especially with the work that I got to do in this particular role. So my advisor adjacent I don't have as much one on one interaction with students, which I miss, right? I miss, but I also recognize that my role now has a much larger reach, because I get to work with all of the advisors on campus to make sure that they know how to use the right systems and how to maintain compliance, and ultimately, how they can be best prepared to serve the students that they work with. So that's sort of a long winded that's my journey, but it really does go back to what was my passion, right? Gavin, you sort of mentioned that earlier, my passion, my the verbiage surrounding my passion, has shifted as I have realized that the Student Success piece of me is not tied to a particular role that I'm in, but that is what drives the work that I've done. All right, Jess, I'm going to pop it over to you because that was probably more long winded than you had wanted.

Jessica Staten  
I think that's great. Rebecca, so I'll introduce myself. My name is Jessica staten. I am currently the Director of Academic Advising within the School of Public Health at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. And Rebecca, a lot of what you said resonated with me, especially about having your identity wrapped up in what you do, because I've experienced that as well, and had to deal with a loss in that way, and had worked, you know, through that process. So Gavin, you asked what you know, kind of inspired us, or how we kind of landed in, you know, higher ed. And for me, it was chance. I was and am, a trained dancer, ballet, tap, jazz, musical theater, and I wanted to dance on Broadway. And after undergrad, I was on some, you know, tours and such, and decided at one point that I could no longer live out of a suitcase, and I wanted to come home. And that's exactly what I did, and I worked in an advising office as a receptionist, and then worked my way up. I remember a supervisor telling me, you've got skills that are better served doing other things, not being our receptionist, and I took offense to it, because I didn't realize what she actually meant at the time, something that Rebecca said that resonated with me was about relationships. I quickly realized as the receptionist in that office, they called me the gatekeeper because I made sure everyone got where they needed to go, and made sure that everyone knew the services that the office provided. But one of the things that I realized early on is that I had the ability to persuade people, to convince people to do things that they might not otherwise do, and that's great power, and I had to use that power for good, not for evil. And so I started working with our student employees, and also realized that I liked the relationships on that end, the supervisory aspect of it. I always wanted to help students, but I realized that I was better served advocating for people who couldn't advocate for themselves, and then if I'm able to do that for my staff, then my staff are able to advocate for the students. So that's just a little background of of my experience in higher ed and academic advising.

Gavin Farber  
First off, Sister Jess, I never knew you were a dancer one, so I'm learning so much more about you than I never knew about you. So this is fabulous. And Rebecca, I didn't know you were starting in a one stop shop, which so many people have those experiences with, another type of office they make the Tweak they find the advising world. You know, I often joke with people like i. Interned as a sophomore in a career in Academic Planning Center, not realizing six years later, I'd be an advisor. It just was like the jobs that I was applying for that would call me back for interviews. So it's those really interesting things from our past that always creep up that are part of our present and futures. And along those lines, you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, navigating, navigating certain challenges so in each of your roles currently, you know, how do you navigate challenges that you get from students and staff and faculty and admin and even that red level, red tape season, if you work with them, how do you balance it all? Because your roles are so administrative, but yet, you've had these multi faceted careers where you've been kind of all over the place, in the in the landscape, I would say, long winded question, I know, but we talk all the time, so they're going to throw it all out there.

Rebecca Hapes  
I'll go ahead and jump in and then let Jess follow. It's kind of challenging, right? We know that it's challenging to do that, so that sort of goes without saying, but I think, I hope that the fact that I have a wide variety of experiences that touch and interact with students in a variety of ways helps me relate to folks that I'm working with to try to really nail down what it is that they need to move forward, right? So again, my world is a lot of compliance and process at this point. So many times it's looking at what, what is the real issue, what's the bottom line issue? Because sometimes what we're initially faced with is really just a symptom of a larger issue. Perhaps it's an access issue, perhaps it's an understanding of process, but really trying to dig into what this scenario actually entails, in order for me or someone in our office to actually address it, so that it's not just putting a band aid on a symptom, but it's actually getting to that lower level need to be addressed.

Jessica Staten  
Oh, we so do address symptoms, don't we? Rebecca, yeah, I think I would have to say, any time I face a challenge, I immediately go to what I anticipate the end result should be or would be, and then I just work backwards. I also like to think that depending on, you know who it is, if it's a student or one of my staff members, something that I have, you know, a little bit more control on the outcome. I also want to to, might want to make sure that I do as minimal harm, you know, to those individuals, you know, as possible, especially when we're dealing with students and courses and taking the wrong thing, you know, to graduate so definitely backward design and and trying to control what I can I also try to wield what little influence I have for administrators above me and even some senior leaders at the campus level, I feel like in 2025 we are still trying to make a case for what advising is, what advisors do, and the critical importance of that work. And so any time that I can take to share one thing that advising is doing, or the importance of the work that we're doing, I try to take that opportunity so that I can educate some folks above me who just still don't really understand what we're doing. But when asked about the challenges that I that I face, I definitely attack those, you know, through kind of backward design and then controlling what I can.

Rebecca Hapes  
I think that's really great. Jess, I think another component of that, as you were speaking, it sort of made me think, looking at it from a variety of angles and perspectives, I think is crucial, right? I mean, if we can try to understand what the other side of this situation is, I think we're able to respond with a better level of understanding, a better level level of empathy, but then also as a higher ed professional ourselves, like not everything, may come to us as urgent and on fire, but if we can put some context and perspective around the situations, perhaps it isn't that everything is on fire, right? And so I think many of us, and I know for a long time I did I would get caught up in in that chaos, right? And we know how it i. How it works. When someone is amped up around you, you have the choice to either rise to that amp or respond maybe in a slightly slower way and try to bring it down and diffuse the situation. So so really, just from a me personally, this is how I try to approach chaos, right, like the things Jess that you mentioned, right, that are out of our control or that we didn't expect to face in a particular day. It's just trying to bring a level of calm to it and to respond to the situation appropriately, not react. So I think those are just, I don't know, life lessons, sort of of things in terms of anything that could be considered a chaotic situation.

Jessica Staten  
Yeah, that's very true. And we know that our teams, our advisors, Rebecca, your team, they are very aware of what's a crisis and what's not, but trying to help a student discern between, you know, for them, it's like, I've got folks on my team who will say, this is easy. We've got this. But to that student, it might actually be the thing that's making them, you know, lose sleep, but we can control that, right? We can help the student understand. So that's really good, a really good reminder. 

Gavin Farber  
It's so true. I think the one thing I think we talked to a lot of our students about is in the subject line, when they say emergency or urgent, that's like a great first year experience course. We talk about an orientation. Are you bleeding? Are you in danger? It's an advising emergency. And it's interesting. At my new role, we had a registration problem in November where we had parents calling the president's office thinking that we had done this intentionally to harm them psychologically. No, we just ran out of classes, and they added more. But it happens, it's kind of the funk of it all. So I loved hearing both your perspectives on that. And again, the theme of this podcast is about sustainability. So I'm a nerd, so I'm often asking colleagues all across the landscape of higher ed, what do you think about when you think of Sustainability in Higher Ed, or sustainability and advising, or anything like that, especially in 2025 with it being such a new landscape, I guess because we've been transformed, I think post lockdown, A bit I would love to start with Jessica this time, just to swap it up.

Jessica Staten  
That is a great question, and it kind of feeds into what I'm currently working on. So I'm in a doctoral program. Fingers crossed. I'm coming to an end to this monster of a thing. But in this process, the EDD is in leadership through the lens of academic advising in higher education and through all of my reading and my writing and my work, what I have found is that in order to be sustainable, institutions, not just of higher education, but even corporations, have to be willing and ready to undergo change, not change for the sake of change, but change to better systems that are broken. Rebecca said it perfectly about putting a band aid on a symptom, and instead, what what we try to focus on within my unit are changing the things that we have systems in place to manage and let those systems run as they were supposed to run. So if we have a registration system that has all the classes programmed in that a student can take. Why not go ahead and make sure all the prerequisites for those classes are programmed in as well, so that the student knows all the requirements and the sequence that they can, you know, take those classes, for example, so making those changes that are correcting systemic errors. If I can call it that I feel like makes myself more sustainable, I'm able to work, you know, longer, harder, faster, my team can direct energy and toward other things, instead of having to rinse and repeat the same conversations that they don't really need to have with students who are, you know, reading the bulletin or reading the class description. So I would say change is necessary, Gavin, to be sustainable.

Rebecca Hapes  
I love that. Jess, that's, that's spot on. I sort of am looking at it from two perspectives. So one, we have our, you know, university process. Systems, right? Just like you were referencing we have a lot of technology that can do so much for us and so as many things as we can automate that would allow allow us actual time and space to have the real conversations with the students, right? So, so that's one thing, like, can we, is something, does something make sense to automate? Can we? Can we put a process in place so that individuals aren't manually doing things that are better served in a more effective and efficient process? Secondly, is really at the very micro level, right? Like, what do I have in place for me, for my team, for our office that ensures we're not burning out, because I've been there, right? It, it's not fantastic. And I think many of us who work through COVID that they we experience that on on some level, right? So we're a few years away from that. What lessons did we learn at that time that have actually stuck, and what might we need to go back and refresh our memory about in terms of practices that we put in place to ensure we have appropriate boundaries set up, right? And that's my language around it, because that's how I see it. I don't think there is such a thing as work life balance, because that implies that my work is just as important as my family and that they are equal. I don't agree with that, right? Like and that's any if anybody's heard me speak or talk to me very much. You probably know that I am passionate about my work and passionate about student success. I'm passionate about equipping others to be the best version of themselves. But the bottom line is, if something were to happen to me, I would be another replacement on a position description at my office, and I'm I'm not quite as easily replaced with my relationships and my family, right? So they can both happen at the same time. It doesn't mean I'm any less passionate about the work that I do. It just means I have it put in its appropriate place, right? I have a career so that I can live my life. I'm not living my life for my career. And again, that's taken many, many years to try to to put that in the appropriate perspective. But for me, I look at, you know, I've got kids involved in multiple things, where do I need to be like, do I need to be the biggest cheerleader for my daughters while they're at their track meet? Or do I need to be sitting at my office? Well, I mean, right now I'm going to say nine times out of 10. I'm going to need to be the biggest cheerleader that my kids have, right yelling as they, you know, run laps or jump or throw or whatever it is that they're doing, there is a little bit of balance with that, right, like you have to recognize what it is that your work requires. So there are certain events my kids are going to have to come second to. So I sort of like the term work life integration, right? Because at different stages, at different times you're those worlds are going to intersect. And so it's making that intersection work for you, for your office, for your family, and that's going to change day to day, season to season, right? That's going to look different. It looks much different to me now that I have teenage kids than it did when I had kids in daycare, right? So it just, I think, the recognition that we need to be aware of where we are in our lives and how that intersects with the work that we're doing, and to put those appropriate boundaries in place so that we can continue to do the work that we love and are passionate about for their duration. 

Jessica Staten  
Rebecca, I love that. And my team currently, there are 14 of us, including myself. So I supervise 12 academic advisors and one assistant director. This past year, we onboarded six, so half of our advising team is brand new, and they're all six new to academic advising as well. And as we're training on the conceptual, the relational, the informational pieces, you know, of the Nakata core competencies, I'm also trying to train them on the reality of being an academic advisor in the 21st century in a COVID informed world. Going back to something you said a minute ago about you know, the emergencies and students, you know, explaining to these new staff members that students will have. An emergency at all hours. If you're on your email and you read it and you realize it's not a true emergency, wait until the next day to respond to that email. If it is a real emergency and you see it, you know, act on it. You know, that's one of the beauties of being able to do our jobs from wherever we are. But the other thing that I tell them, and I don't say this to be as harsh as it sounds coming out, but I tell them, the university air quotes, the university is an inanimate object that does not care about you. Now there are people in positions at this university who care about you, your well being, your health. And when I say it that way to them, they're like, Oh, I get it. I understand what you're trying to convey. You know, to me, I care about my team, and I want their well being, you know, to come first. But I feel like as a advising leader, part of my role is to make sure that we're educating. Rebecca the things that we have been through and we've had to learn on the ground that we're at least educating these new professionals as they come into these roles.

Rebecca Hapes  
Absolutely I frequently try to communicate that I created, and fed the monster Right? Like I did it wrong, because I was super responsive, responding at all hours. And then that fed an expectation that that's what was supposed to happen. And when I realized that I had created the very thing that was burning me out, I was like, Oh, wow, that's horrible. Okay, what do I put in place to do that differently, right? And resetting expectations when boundaries have not been enforced is really, really hard. It's really, really hard because I loved my students. I loved responding. I wanted to make sure that their needs were being met, but just your point is so valid if we don't, if we don't talk about, I have no problem saying I messed up, right? Like if we don't talk about our mistakes, so other people's other people can learn from them and not take 20 some odd years to get those things figured out if we don't share those experiences, I think we're doing a disservice to the sustainability of the profession itself. So yeah, that's a great point, Jess.

Gavin Farber  
It's interesting. I still check my old email my previous institution, and students are still asking questions, even though there's an only message that says I no longer employed here. Here's the general email. And my former boss there thinks it's hilarious that I still get emails, and then I was told just delete them. And I'm like, well, then that. And then in the back of your mind, you have like, a like, well, that that student might not get helped. And then you realize they'll figure it out, hopefully they walk into that office and get the help they need. But it's interesting at this new job, we had a staff meeting in January where our interim dean said, if you're gonna do work at night, please set your email for the next day to be sent out at 8, 8:05, 8:06, whatever it might be, because we don't want it to look like we're operating after 4:30 or five o'clock, which was the first time I ever heard any supervisor in almost 15 years tell me that. So I do think it's alive and well, this conversation of well being, and what are we doing, and how are we thinking about it? And, you know, they're trying to get us to do walking groups and and having walking meetings or having lunch meetings, and even, like, let's all play pickleball or something. So the activity, is there something I'm interested about? Is, is as we were going on, the well being conversation is, is there something you particularly love doing that helps you relax, engage? De stress, calm down after a day, and you're just like, I'm shutting it off, shutting my higher ed brain off. I'm going to go to do something else. 

Jessica Staten  
Yeah, I've got several things, and I'll openly admit that right now, at this particular moment in my life, which is the methodology section and the findings. I don't have a whole lot of bandwidth for these things, but in order to get through this kind of rough patch, I am making a list all the things that I'm looking forward to doing, hopefully come May or June, I have two dogs, and they're my they're my children, my my fur babies, and you know, when I get home, sometimes I just want to snuggle with them on the couch. As simple, simple as that is, I also have a partner, and I like to snuggle with him as well. I love to read. Yeah, and shopping. I I like shopping. I like crafting. And there will come a day, hopefully in the not too distant future. Well, I will when I will be able to read a book for pleasure again.

Rebecca Hapes  
I'll piggyback off of that, because I did get the letters behind my name fairly recently, and so for a very, very long time, just I was in the position you were, and I didn't know reading for fun, I thoroughly enjoyed the content I was learning in my doctoral program. But reading for fun wasn't on my list for a really, really long time, but, but it's come back. Reading for fun has come back. I set a personal goal for myself to read 52 books a year, right? Like, can I read a book a week? And then last year, I my my youngest daughter and I raced to see who could read the most books, and she won, like by a landslide, she won. But I try to do stuff with my kids. I don't know that I've got I don't know my life right now because of the stage of life that I am. It's running around and being the biggest cheerleader I know how to be for whatever my kids are doing for myself, I like to walk, jog, have two fur babies, because we apparently can't actually be a foster family for puppies, because we fall in love and we are foster fail family, foster fail, adoption win, right? So we've got rescues. And, yeah, I try to do crafts at one point in time, I was somewhat crafty, but, you know, I may have perhaps lost that over the years, so it's trying to get that creativity juice flowing again. Hang out with friends, lots of coffee. I I don't have any, I guess, focused hobbies other than being my being the kid I was cheerleader Anna and trying to read.

Jessica Staten  
I'll share a recent craft that got me back into crafting. I'm calling it a craft. So there are these books. They're called sticker books, I think even adult sticker books, and they're sticker by number, essentially, where you have stickers in the back and you have a picture, and you have to match the sticker up with the the correct place in the photo. The amount of focus that that takes drowns out all of the noise, especially, you know, recent noises that have, you know, started to occupy brain space and just allows me to focus on something. And then when it's finished, it's just, you know, really colorful. I'm working on flowers right now. It's a really colorful photo of flowers. And so now the craft piece comes in where I'm trying to figure out, what can I do with this page that has the blank back, but can I use it in some kind of craft? So if, if you like crafting, but maybe minimal thought I would recommend a sticker book.

Rebecca Hapes  
I love that I hadn't heard of that I've heard of the little dot the dot crafts, sure, it has a better name than dot crafts, but that I did try to teach myself how to crochet, and apparently I either can't count or I can't keep the thread even so, you know, just fun stuff to try, just to use a different part of your brain that doesn't get used in the same way when you're in a doctor world program.

Gavin Farber  
I feel bad I tried coloring, but I do the ver I do the app on the iPad, which is bad because you're still looking at the screen. But I have found getting through the rough days of add drop, if I do one to do puzzles at night and just click in the number of the color, and I have to pick something pretty. So I pick like a flower or a food object or a teddy bear. I don't know what the app is, but it's what I do. Now, I didn't think I would be a color, even though Rebecca knows I color. Yes, I'm a square with a squiggle.

Rebecca Hapes  
Well, one of my daughters has an app similar to that, so I don't know if it's the same thing, right, but, but she does that, and I always like a good puzzle, right? 

Gavin Farber  
Something else I was thinking about, and again, was not a prepared question, but again, it's how we all kind of met. Was, you know, our professional development, what inspired it? How has it kind of transformed with your pivot in your careers? Where were you getting involved in it first? And how has it kind of changed for you?

Jessica Staten  
I don't think that mine has changed so much as the volume of professional development is probably what changed. I mean, since my role is still in frontline academic advising, I still look to Nakata. For most things, I'm just at this stage more focused on my immediate needs here in the office with my team and making sure that as we build this program, that they have everything you know they need. And so I'm still involved in the car. I still do you know several things there, I'm just not as involved as I was say, pre pandemic. 

Rebecca Hapes  
Yeah, I would, Iwould say I'm definitely still involved with NACADA. But how my involvement has shaped looks a little bit different, right? Because I am, again, I'm going to call it advisor adjacent. I'm not working with students in the same ways that I have in the past. So my roles within NACADA have really looked to shift to, how can I support advisors who are doing work similar to how I used to do? And then within the registrar's office, we're involved in acro, and then the the region and state level. So acro Sacro tacro, and then my, my boss and I have presented at acro Sam, which is the strategic enrollment management and so it's expanded a little bit as I learn more about different facets of higher education. I'm definitely a lifelong learner, right? I wear that nerd badge proudly, and so it is very normal for me. If I find myself in a space where there are things that I don't feel as confident in my knowledge about that I will choose to delve into those, to try to make sure that I'm exposing myself to additional components of things our office does, or things that I feel like I should know or at least be aware of in the space that I'm at so I just sort of continue to find opportunities so that I can learn more and feel comfortable in the spaces that I'm in. 

Speaker 4  
I think it's really wonderful the new people we meet as we expand our associations that we join as we change these roles that we're in. You really find that there are some amazing gems of people in every aspect of this industry, and they're just as passionate as we are in NACADA, but also as we're meeting our colleagues, whether it's acro or mace with the career development or, you know, folks that are doing faculty work now, and they're doing more faculty based things, it's sort of that puzzle piece, like we're all fun puzzle, and our colleagues are part of that quilt, and we're opening that ability to keep on adding to our professional quilts. And it keeps you warm, it keeps you happy, it keeps you fed emotionally and professionally. And because you both give such great advice. You know, what are a couple of the lessons that you both have learned as you've pivoted change different roles in the field, any type of little nuggets of wisdom you could share with any of the listeners who might be because who might be considering a change or a tweak in their professional career.

Rebecca Hapes  
All right, I'll take this one first. One of the nuggets I've already shared, right? Don't let your identity be wrapped up in a title. Understand what it is that makes you tick in terms of your own passion, and as long as you're finding a place where that passion intersects with the work you're doing, then you'll still feel as though you're achieving your purpose. So that's one thing, and again, that was a hard lesson, because, like Jess, I had a loss associated with that that helped me recognize that that was an area that was a little bit out of balance in my life, right? My passion is still being served out, although my role and title look different than they than they once did. So that's one, and then two just sort of mentioned it. But don't be afraid of change. It is okay to not feel like the expert any longer right. When you're in a particular role and you have done the same thing for a while, it is natural for you to feel like you've got it, and then when you're in a different space that looks different. That feeling of uncomfortableness is really jarring at times, and so I think we need to lean into that rather than be afraid of it. Because I certainly, when I came into my advisor adjacent role, there was a lot of, we'll call it imposter syndrome, but, but there was a lot of huh. Uh, I don't know as much about some of these things as I thought I did. And I could have taken that one of two ways, right? I could have run and hid, or I could have just leaned into it, which is what I did, and said, Alright, so this is my perception, based on this other role that I had, tell me where my my my blind spots are right. Fill in the gaps for me. Where do I need to go so that I can learn a little bit more about this particular area? I frequently say I make mistakes right? And I have no problem admitting that I make mistakes. And I think that helps, because I recognize that I don't know everything. I mean, how scary would it be if I thought I did know everything, right? I recognize that I don't know everything, and then I surround myself with people who are very knowledgeable about the work that they do, and I'm not intimidated by not being the smartest person in a room. Good, gosh, that's where I really want to hang out, right? I don't ever want to be the smartest person in a room because I'm in the wrong room, right? I need to be with people who know more, way more than I do, so that I can learn from them. So never be afraid. Never be afraid to learn.

Jessica Staten  
I've gotta reiterate what Rebecca said. You know, we're we're both saying this about having your identity wrapped up in the role, I feel like it was inevitable. I feel like it was a lesson that I absolutely needed to learn when I learned it, because what I cannot imagine is being where I am in 2025 not having lived through 2014 that was the year for me. And so the lesson that I learned from that was, first of all, not to put obstacles in my way, because I went from doing a thing that I thought was my thing, I thought I had arrived right. That was my thing, and it was taken away from me, and I was putting obstacles in the way for other opportunities, and didn't even realize it. And so coming to a completely different state, at an institution with zero background into a leadership position, definitely had a little imposter syndrome going on. Rebecca, but a mentor said to me, you were hired to do the job that they needed. You were hired to fill this role because you're the person that they needed. And that's all I needed to hear to be able to be like, Oh, right. I know academic advising. I just don't know the details of the curriculum on this campus. I can learn that, right? So I had to remember what I knew in order to be able to fulfill the role that I was hired. So my lesson is, I said, in essence, I guess, is, you know, don't put obstacles in your way, just kind of just kind of do it. Just kind of go with it.

Gavin Farber  
So as we get to the final bits of this conversation, again, I love how we talk privately. We talk publicly. Now, I think people really need to know how amazing you both are. Something off the top of my brain, you know, how do you handle, let's just say, a disappointment. How does that happen? How do you overcome it, and how do you move forward? Because I know there's a lot of people out there that have been going through those types of moments, and they see it as a negative, but you know, that's just something off the top of my brain right now that I figured I'd ask you both.

Rebecca Hapes  
Sure, I'll, I'll take a stab at that. So disappointments can come in a lot of different packages. Over the years within the cauda, right? I have run for various positions. Sometimes I was successful, sometimes I wasn't, so that could be perceived as a disappointment, right? I wanted something that I didn't necessarily get, but throughout any of those particular circumstances, I tried to switch my mindset from thinking, why, like, why didn't I get this? Why not to okay, I didn't. So what's next? And so many times, I really try to look at things and make sure that my mindset and my brain is geared correctly, right? Because things are going to happen that are going to be out of my control. If there's something that I would like and it doesn't happen, I've got to think, from my perspective, that's either for my protection that I wasn't allowed into that space for my preparation, because maybe there's something I need to learn in the meantime, so or it's my provision, like maybe I really shouldn't that's not the right door for me at that time, right? So. It's really just reframing how I think about that. And I didn't realize how much I did that until my kids started using some of that language back at me. But there are things we can't control, right? And if we get tied up in the outcome of things we can't control, then I think our brains will spin and put us in a cycle that's not not healthy sometimes. So it's really just looking at that perspective. And let's go back to some of the Nakata things. If my goal was to advance the the association through my involvement in whatever position I had, I had run for, if I wasn't supposed to assist in that way, where else was I supposed to assist? What else was it that could still help me accomplish that ultimate goal? So it's really just looking at it as a door closed means there's another opportunity for you, perhaps in a space you haven't looked at or considered. 

Jessica Staten  
I have to echo Rebecca on this one, because this is my, you know, kind of mindset, and she's 100% spot on when she says, you know, you have to shift your mindset. Because there were times 2014 for example, when I didn't have, you know, that positive mindset, and I saw it as a door closed, and I didn't know if a door would ever open. I am very much, I think, a multi modal learner, but I resonate with visual images, and so when I see something very linear, like I'm supposed to do A and B and C as a type A, OCD person when it doesn't happen in that sequential order. That is the frustrating part for me. It's not that it it's not that I don't think it'll ever happen. It's like, oh, now I have to go back and think about a different way of how to get it that if I'm supposed to have that, you know, whatever that is. And so I've tried to train myself to think of things, not so much in that linear progression now, but as like an on ramp and off ramp, like the visuals that we see of really congested in our states. My goal still there. It's that maybe it's going to be three years down the road before, you know, I reach that goal. So very much. Exactly what Rebecca said for me, it's just about reframing and figuring out, you know, is this something I'm supposed to have? Okay? What am I going to do right now instead? Or how am I going to approach this differently? Just got to regroup and refocus.

Rebecca Hapes  
Well, what's interesting to me, too is these are some of the the tricks and tips that we tell students right when, when students encounter disappointments or obstacles or setbacks, this is what we communicate to them. And so I don't remember when the aha moment for me clicked, but I realized I needed to take the same advice that I was giving to other people, right? And I think many times we don't inherently take the same advice that we give to other people, right? The voices in our head, I don't know if anybody else has voices, but mine are not always kind, right, but we wouldn't let anybody else speak to us the way we do to ourselves. And so a lot of that has been mindset shifts, with really trying to be mindful about it's it's all still go going back to well, being right. What am I doing to put myself in the best situation so that I can accomplish the thing that is out there for me to accomplish, right? And I can be my own worst critic, which puts you on a different pathway. So it's really recognizing what are Jess to your point, your what are our obstacles? What are we imposing as obstacles, and where do we would actually need to go in terms of accomplishing what it is that we're set out to do.

Gavin Farber  
You're worth going to laugh when I say this next comment, but it's a very something I would find, um, about a year and a half ago, it was September of 23 I was watching British Vogue YouTube, and Naomi Campbell said this quote, and it stays with me that I know everything has its time, and I you can't compete with destiny and what you thought you want when you're younger. It's just not your time to have it. And although she was talking about not getting, like, a fashion campaign, I was just sharing this with a group of advisors at NYU two weeks ago, and it kind of clicked with a lot of them, like, oh, like, the promotion wasn't for me quite yet. Or I have to, like, build my tool kit a little bit more, or something's not here, but I'm not going to give up, because there's still more for me to give, and I really appreciate we just said Rebecca about what we tell. Our students, is what we would tell ourselves and our colleagues, and we are living being learners. And sometimes we have those moments of, I wouldn't call it selfishness, when you don't get something and you have to have your time to mourn it, but you both just said, just beautiful things I know that are going to help a lot of people out there. Because what I love about what our industry looks like now is it's like a shape shifter. It's shaping institutions are investing more in advising. There's more positions coming up in different areas of campuses where they're going to need advising, voices who are ready to leave the advising day to day, but they're going to need those minds, like your mind Rebecca for a registrar's office, or what we're seeing a lot like just this past job with training and development and a provost office. So I think out there, and again, I should have called Craig McGill on this, because Craig McGill is research on the professionalization of advising is so important. Maybe we'll have a coffee chat with him next time, because I know he likes coffee, but I want to just get your final thoughts. What are some things we didn't get to cover in the questions that you want to share with the audience, that you want to share with this topic, with this being, with your expertise and experiences out there that the masses should know about you, your journey and where you are right now,

Jessica Staten  
That's a large question. So in true Jess fashion, I'm going to change it. I'm going to share some things that I think, regardless of what facet of higher education the listeners may be working within, that I think we should focus moving forward. So as I, as I became the director here in the School of Public Health, I've been here working on year three, one of the immediate things that I realized is that the talent, the advising talent that we had on staff, had been here for so many years, and the historical knowledge that they possessed would eventually be gone. And so we needed to capture as much historical information as possible, to be able to know what existed, so we could move forward. And so one of the things that we are all, the whole team, not just myself, we consistently do, is we say, is that in teams, because we have a folder, a channel, a whatever, so that we can capture all of the information that we need so that we don't have to duplicate efforts in the future. And so with technology moving as quickly as it's moving and positively or negatively impacting the work that we do, I think it's critically important for us to realize that folks who've been doing this work for a really long time are about at the end, they are they are tired, and they deserve a reprieve, and we have to be able to bridge the loss of that knowledge somehow. And so my assistant director says he named it for me. He says just future proofs everything. And I do think that he's right to a point. I do it for two reasons. One because I love a good historical document that I can reference, but also because I get in. This is my type A personality. I get extremely frustrated when I can't find what I need when I need it, and so I feel like, as we're training new staff members, they should have the same reference documents. So for me, moving forward, it's, you know, trying to make sure that we have systems in place to kind of support the work that we're doing.

Rebecca Hapes  
I like that. Like document, document processes. There's doesn't make sense to reinvent the wheel if the wheels are already spinning. I just need to write down how to make the wheel turn. My final thoughts, I'm going to go in a slightly different direction and make it a little bit more on a personal like, what do you need to do? As a listener, I frequently tell my team, and I really do try to encourage them to take time for themselves, right? What is what does that look like for you? If there is a skill set you want are wanting to learn, how are you putting in time in your schedule to learn the thing that's going to help you do whatever it is that you want to do next. So making sure you're giving yourself a little bit of space for that learning, and then just space time to think, time to be creative, time to do focused work. Does your calendar support the goals that you have, or is it back to back? Meetings, and you're not actually getting a lot done, right? So what, what kind of intentionality do you need to look at on a personal level, so that you are setting yourself up to be the success that you know you can be? Right? For me, it was looking at bulk tasking things so that I didn't have mental energy lost when I switched between tasks. That may be a really small thing, but it was pretty critical in my world to make sure I wasn't losing that mental mental focus and energy regarding my day to day work, but also looking at we work in semester. We work in cycles, right? It's either semester or, you know, whatever the quarters language is. But what do you need to to fill your bucket back up within that time frame? Is it one day off a month, one afternoon do you need? What does self care need to look like for you so that you can remain the most effective individual in the role that you have so self care to remain effective continued learning to prepare yourself for whatever might happen to be next.

Gavin Farber  
I think that was a beautiful final thought to leave off on. Rebecca, I just want to thank both you and Jessica for coming on today to the adventures in advising podcast. I really hope the listeners learn quite a bit about the sustainability of academic advisors, the career field, the adjacent careers they could have, and really the fulfillment of having a long, beautiful career in this field, and I'm so thankful that you both came on today. And I'm gonna take it back to Matt Markin to close us out for the day. 

Matt Markin  
Oh, thank you all so much for this. I learned a lot. I was taking a lot of notes on all those tips. I'm like, Oh, I can probably implement that into my practice, but yeah, gavid, thank you so much for hosting this episode. I look forward to conversations with y'all, hopefully down the road, but Jessica and Rebecca, thank you so much for being on the podcast and being interviewed today.