Higher Ed Synergy: Advancing Student Equity & Belonging - Adventures in Advising

Dr. Duan Jackson from the California State University Office of the Chancellor discusses the evolution of her role as director of student advising initiatives in which she oversees advising and career services, new student orientation, and learning support. Duan highlights the importance of collaboration among California's higher education institutions, including the University of California, California State University, community colleges, and independent institutions through the CAL-CAAN conference, which focuses on student equity, belonging, AI in education, and transfer initiatives.

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
Welcome everyone to the adventures in advising podcast. This is episode 117. By the time you're listening to this episode, it's February 2025. If you work in higher education in California, this episode is for you. And if you're not, this information could still be beneficial as we learn more about the upcoming calcam conference and potentially how those within California and possibly outside of California, might still be able to join their virtual conference room permitting. So let's welcome back to the podcast, and that is Dr. Duan Jackson from theCSU Chancellor's Office. Last time Duan was on the podcast was episode 13 from June 2020, that one had only, not only had Duan, but also Casey Self on that episode. Duan, it's wonderful to have you back.

Duan Jackson  
Matt. Thank you so much for having me. I mean, it's such an important time, and I'm so grateful to you. So I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today. 

Matt Markin  
Now, like we're saying, the last time you were on was back in 2020 and at that time you were the interim director student advising initiatives. It's been almost five years since then. What's new?

Duan Jackson  
So much has changed in those five years, especially here at the Chancellor's Office, which has sort of redirected my position in many ways. But we've had leadership changes, new folx coming in, you know, great colleagues leaving and going on to other adventures. So just really have had more opportunities to delve into advising and initiatives, and, you know, being able to take on more in a sense. And so since my position has transitioned from interim to the system wide director, it's been a thrill to be able to work with so many amazing people across the state, actually, and the different higher education segments I've also taken on Career Services, New Student Orientation and learning support, and if you really think about how those are all connected, it makes sense. I've had an opportunity to work with LA28 and their career development piece and bringing the Olympic Games, hopefully back to the city of Los Angeles, as well as being able to work with the governor's office on their initiatives for the career workforce planning group. So I've been very fortunate to advance opportunities, I think, for our students, which is at the core of why I do what I do, and just making sure that they are having access to unique and great opportunities.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and so then you've gone from interim and now...

Duan Jackson  
Yes, I'm sorry I didn't say that I have and that has, that has been a that was, it took us a minute again because of the leadership changes, but that happened about two years in and so, and I was fine with that. I knew that coming over and again, it was just the process of hiring in the CSU system. So it worked itself out. 

Matt Markin  
So you're basically connected, in a sense, to every, every CSU in terms of, like, advisors, or, you know, directors of advising, career advising, EOP, and then even these outside organizations, outside of the CSU?

Duan Jackson  
Absolutely, and I think that's what's been so interesting for me, working with those different organizations connected to higher education as well as institutions. I mean, our partners in this whole, you know, I guess ecosystem would be our community college partners, our private institutions, the University of California system, we really can't operate in a vacuum anymore when we're trying to serve students in the state. And so that has been really, the really interesting aspect of my work, and being able to cultivate those relationships and those partnerships, specifically.

Matt Markin  
And I guess, you know, from your perspective, being in the Chancellor's Office and everyone that that you're kind of connected to and having to communicate with, not, you know, not working with students, but working with those who work with students. What are some of the challenges that that you're hearing, you know that students, staff, faculty are are facing nowadays?

Duan Jackson  
Well, it's really interesting. I think this time is it's so different than any other time. And I've been in the system for a very long time. Matt, with regards to just enrollments, you know, across the state and all of our higher education systems. And again, as you mentioned, I do work out with all the directors of those specific areas, so really navigating the 23 institutions and treating them as individual institutions, because, yes, we're a system, and we embrace what we call systemness but also respecting where each one is located and how they're serving different populations of students, but then understanding our students do move. We call them swirlers. In some cases, they move between CS use back to the community colleges, back to the or to the UCs and so forth. And just understanding that we have to really work together to make sure that we are providing the best educational opportunities for our students to go out and work eventually, because they are the workforce for the state of California. So we're just not educating students to go, okay, you can go ahead and, you know, leave the state after you graduate. We want them to stay in California. We want them to be able to hold those jobs that keep this workforce and our economy growing. And so to me, that's the most important thing, is making sure that they see and I know people don't like to use return on investment, but it is about a return on investment, if you think about it.

Matt Markin  
yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that kind of leads into this next question, which is, you know, you have a conference coming up that maybe will address a lot of that and help those, those higher ed professionals. So talk to you about before we talk about the conference, talk about what CAL-CAAN is?

Duan Jackson  
Thank you for that question, because I'm so excited. I happen to have been a part of it from the very beginning, when it was known as the California Collaborative Conference, and that was really just our three segments, the University of California system, the California State University system and the community college system. And we had this amazing logo with our three rings tied together, and it was phenomenal. And it was just a fantastic opportunity to bring our three segments together, three institutions, systems together. And then we happened to stumble upon a group of amazing folks from NACADA who wanted to help us plan that, and we had our first joint conference with NACADA, with the collaborative I think at the time, we hadn't formally changed the name. I think it was in 2022 when we had that conference in the city of orange, or Anaheim, and we brought on our independent colleges and universities in California, and they're part of the Association of Independent California Colleges and Universities, the AICc and you and met amazing, fantastic people who just, sort of just partnered with us immediately. And we said, hey, we need to bring them on. So we have, we've created a new logo that looks like a four leaf clover with all of our segments. And I think of it as, not necessarily as good luck, but just sort of the clover is a representation of the future, and the representation of all the good that they're forced are for entities, what we're doing and how we're serving students and learning from one another. You know, some of the challenges that we have, maybe the independent colleges do not have, but calcan was designed to bring us together, to stay in community, to have conversations, to talk about those students who have started the privates, come to a CSU or go to a community college, and it's like, hey, we really need to understand how we do business and how we're working together, and how we're serving our students, and we all have a passion for it. But when it started in 2014 and we celebrated our 10th anniversary last year in San Jose with the conference with NACADA and our region nine conference that was so well attended and was it was such a delight. The co chairs did a phenomenal job, but the role is just to make sure that we're in community, having conversations and really talking about the challenges and the positive things. We don't want to just talk about all the negatives, and they're hopefully not as many as there. There, you know, was in the past, but just making sure that we're on the same page and really speaking the same. I think we speak four different languages, if you think about it, you know, we reference things differently, but coming together and having, you know, conference sessions where we're really breaking down information and sharing how we're working with students. And then Matt, to go even further, it is a professional development opportunity for the for our leaders in the system, our AVPs, our faculty counselors and our advisors and so forth, so that they feel like they're growing and developing in the world of academic advising. And so we also are very inclusive of career advisors and counselors and those who are also with learning support and mentoring. And even though they have their own professional organizations, calcan is one where they can bring that knowledge into one space and be able to share it more broadly. 

Matt Markin  
And it's kind of going to your point of like four different languages, like, you know, or even like, what's the right hand doing versus the left hand doing, you know? So it's like, it's a way that kind of had this seamless transition, in a way for students going from, let's say, a community college to a private or four year or four year to a four year, it just got an understanding like, What's everyone doing, and how can we all just pitch in and help and create a streamlined process for students? 

Duan Jackson  
You've said that so perfectly, and students, when they realize that there's some connection, or we understand the transfer process to a private school, or they're at the community college and they want to come to us, or if they're wanting to come to a CSU that's out of their area. You know, we can talk them through that process, and we can really make it easier. We're also, you know, as as a system. You know, if folks are able to attend the conference, we'll learn more about streamlining our general education across the the systems, and having a seamless process where we're aligning our general education so that students will understand, oh, if I take this, I'll have credit at this institution if I decide to transfer here or there and and so it, it was a long time coming, I think, but I think we're doing it at the perfect time, and I really do believe it's going to benefit our students greatly.

Matt Markin  
And the other thing I want to mention, because you were mentioning the logos, yeah, the the first logo that that, when it was a California Collaborative, had the rings. And I remember the joke was that it looked like it was the Olympic rings. And remembering Dr. Chris Lindfelt was also part of the California Collaborative steering committee at that time. He one things he always wanted, because he loved that logo, and he wanted, like a lapel pin at one of the conferences, which we ended up having for the Riverside conference in 2018 but that was what sparked a lot of the like academic advising pins, at least for me, that ended up happening afterwards, because he really loved, wanted a pin, and so created one. And then I was like, Cool, let's make more pins after that. But, yeah, I just wanted to kind of mention that, because you mentioned the logo. I was like, let me bring up the pins. And Dr. Lindfelt.

Duan Jackson  
Now that you say that we, we kept seeing our logo on other in other places like it kept getting stolen from us in a way. And I was thinking, Wait, that's our logo. Wait, that's our and I just thought, Okay, let's just make a new one. No one's going to take this one. I at least I don't think they will. But it really do see it as a symbol of hope. You know, this new kind of four leaf clover, a symbol of possibilities, so to speak. And it just is, I think it just accurate, accurately reflects us coming together. So I really do I love this. And our our web team helped design it, and they did a phenomenal job here at the Chancellor's Office.

Matt Markin  
Yeah. So tell us about the upcoming conference. What do you want listeners to know about the calcan conference? 

Duan Jackson  
Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. This is a conference like no other. It's we have pulled people in from our enrollment management teams, our academic program teams. We have topics on AI, which is something we've not done. We have two student panels on both days and or a panel and day on each day, and then we also have phenomenal keynote speakers. We're centering this around student equity and belonging and a sense of having to make sure that they feel a part of our communities, as well as advancing all of these initiatives that are coming to us from various entities. So really thrilled that it's a conference that you will register for for two days, you can come and go in as out as you need to. We've factored in breaks. We have amazing moderators who are really experts in those specific areas. So I'm excited that we'll have folks that can facilitate discussions and conversations, and it will ask your questions. So yes, I'm just thrilled. It's March 6 and 7th, so it's right around the corner, and we just ask that, you know, you make time and space to have your staff members come in and be able to view this, hopefully, in community, and if not, they have time, if they're just sitting at their desk, to be able to just kind of listen to, kind of glean and get those, you know, new ideas and ways in which we are really supporting our Students. But it's a jam packed two days I've the committee did a phenomenal job coming together on such short notice, and then hopefully they'll take some of this information back and we'll be able to to attend the Nakata conference and share some of the highlights of it.

Matt Markin  
Now talking about registration like. Is there a cost? Is it virtual? 

Duan Jackson  
Thank you so much. It is a completely virtual conference. No cost whatsoever. We do require registration, and during that process, we ask a couple of questions so we can just sort of capture information to be able to push additional information out as we are continuing to plan more and more events, and again, like I said, no cost. So this is really phenomenal. Hopefully we will. I'm not sure if we're going to be recording all the sessions, but then if you register, we'll know, and we'll probably be able to push those out at a later date. But it will be open to everyone in the state of California, we'll be able to accommodate 1000 registrants, but if we have space, we will definitely welcome our colleagues across the country. They want to come in here with calc hands doing and and how we've evolved. We are an allied member to NACADA, so we we consider ourselves a partner with them, and we really are excited that we formed this partnership, and that's thanks to you, Matt, because I hadn't really realized that we could do that with formally, the collaborative and now count can so that has been a fruitful, really phenomenal relationship.

Matt Markin  
And then can you touch a little bit upon like, maybe some of the sessions or the keynote, anything to ice a listener, to want to attend the conference?

Duan Jackson  
As far as some of the sessions go, we have the first keynote on day one. We have Dr. Crystal Rawls. She is from CSU Dominguez Hills. She's really She's the director of the workforce Integration Network at Cal State, Dominguez Hills, and she's going to really talk about illuminating, illuminating pathways to student success. And so I'm really excited she's going to have that session moderated, or what the Q and A at the end, by Dr Maria Gradone, a who is the NACADAregion nine chair, and she's out of UC Irvine. And then we will have what I'm really excited about is bringing in my colleagues from the Chancellor's Office and some of the community college partners with talking about Cal-GETC, our move to a streamlined general education pathway. We're going to talk about transfer initiatives and pathway success programs, and possibly the transfer planner. And so we'll have my colleagues here from the chancellor's office moderating that session, and we're gonna have a phenomenal student panel on the discussion of their transfer experience that's gonna be moderated by Mr. Matt Markin, my dear friend, and then ending the day with our Community College Chancellor's Office and Sova on common course numbering and the new assist program that we're going to have folks from the assist area to talk about how our transfer and articulation agreements are working across the segments. And so that's really going to be for everyone, whether you're at the private institutions, the community colleges, obviously, that's really where we're going to hear about those processes and those those opportunities to really, I guess, get in more in alignment, to make sure our students are really having, again, that seamless transfer experience that you mentioned. And then finally, the ending of the day. It's about a 30 minute discussion session that's going to be also moderated by our colleagues from the chancellor's office. On day two, we're going to have a phenomenal keynote speaker who's going to be talking about sort of equity minded initiatives area Ms. Ariel Collatz from UC Davis, really thrilled about that. And then the use of AI in higher education, which I think is going to be phenomenal for everyone to hear about, because it's here, it's not going away. And what we need to do is make sure we're ready, and how we use it in advising, and how we use it, how our students are thinking about it. So I'm really excited about that. And then we'll have a student panel discussion later in that afternoon with talk on the use of AI and how students are using it, and what their experiences have been and and how they want to what are they hoping to see, and what are we? What are they expecting from us? And then we will close the session with fostering inclusivity with our Interim Associate Vice Assistant Vice Chancellor, Ray Murillo, and it's going to be moderated by our colleague from Loyola Marymount University. So really in that day with the discussion session. But again, it's going to be something for everyone. And I really think that if you feel like I can't block out two whole days, just pick and choose. You can come and go in and out of the sessions as needed, and that will be fine. But I really think everyone's going to want like, well, I want to hear it all, and so we're going to have to figure they're going to have to figure out ways to do that, because sessions will be there. But I'm thrilled, I'm thrilled that they'll have this opportunity. 

Matt Markin  
And so the CAL-CAAN conference, mainly for those within California, but potentially those that are outside California that are, like, AI, sounds like that's universal for a lot of institutions, or transferring that sort of thing. There's potentially an opportunity for for others outside of California to to register?

Duan Jackson  
I'd like to make sure we reserve those spots, you know, initially, for our California colleagues, but then, you know, if there's space available, I absolutely would love to welcome it up for our national colleagues, where they understand some of the things that we're doing, some of the initiatives that we have moving forward. And I think, personally, California is leading away in a lot of ways, but it would be interesting if we have those folks on this during the discussion session to share some of their insights and some of the phenomenal things that they're doing that we may be able to, you know, consider for our student populations. 

Matt Markin  
Now let's say someone is from California. They're from Cal State University, University of California, community college, private. How can they become more involved in CAL-CAAN?

Duan Jackson  
That's a great question, Matt, and that's hopefully, if they're able to register for this conference, we'll definitely capture their information. Our goal is to develop a really robust list serve, so we can just push information out regularly and anyone can use we have. We are hoping to manage that from the Chancellor's Office. And so if you're affiliated, and when you register, you'll be asked us a short series of questions, just to kind of capture your institution, your your status, you know, and as well as if you know, if you're advising, if you're a faculty advisor, career advisor and so forth, or faculty counselor. So if that, we can stay in touch, and hopefully it'll be used so that they can communicate with one another and and just you know, use the list serve and ask general questions and hopefully go, you know, someone will respond with feedback, but that's the plan, and the only way to make that work is to register for the conference so we can capture that information.

Matt Markin  
And I know you don't have a crystal ball, but what in your vision like? What would the future of calcan look like?

Duan Jackson  
Well, I just want to see it grow. I really want to see it be become a main vessel for advisors to feel like they're in community, and the advising community and the service community to feel like they're in community. And when I say service, it's because I think we all do this work because we're in service to our students, but it also mean that to say we can't work in silos anymore, that those days are gone, and it's really going to be important for us to just, you know, lean on one another. We don't have to figure these things out by ourselves anymore. And I really think that Nakata has done a fantastic job bringing folks together. And people are like, well, who's NACADA? And I'm in, I'm in the career world, and I know about NACE, or I'm in this world, and I know about NASPA, but really having a good understanding that NACADA is really here, and a lot of people think it's for, you know, earlier career professionals, but really helping leaders become better leaders. And you know, it's one thing to transition from being an academic advisor and then going into a lead position, and that can be somewhat of a challenge, because it's just that transitional period where it's like, Okay, now, now I have people I'm supervising and I'm responsible for different types of programs. NACADA can really help you get prepared for that. But we also can too, and by doing we do that by community, we do that by talking and having those conversations. I can't begin to tell you the number of conversations I have with people and they say, Wait, you didn't just jump into academic advising? I'm like, I've worked at an institution for a long time, and actually started out answering phones, and it was a receptionist, and they're, like, you did. And like, Yes, I did, and you can do it too. I mean, you know, it's one of those things where I'm proud that I was doing that work, and thankfully I was in the Provost Office, because I really had the lay of the land and learned the university system really well, but or that campus really well. But I say that to say that you really don't know what someone's been through or going through until you've had that conversation with them and they open up to you. And when we have those conferences, and we're able to really have like those special interest groups, we can do those small breakouts, those are the most meaningful times where you can just have that one on one, or share some of the challenges you may be facing, some of the obstacles, and how do I deal with that in the workplace? Or how do I handle this? And, you know, how do I get people to notice something? Or how can I make this change? It takes time, but it is absolutely possible, and so I want people to feel i. They have a place to come to, to just sort of brainstorm those ideas and to keep growing. That's what I think we all want to do, you know, just continuing, continuously developing, and, you know, growing in our profession. So I hope calcan can be that one resource, not only for professional development, but definitely building community and and doing so keeping the single most important thing in mind is serving our students.

Matt Markin  
And you know you were mentioning earlier about kind of like the history of calcan and starting as a California Collaborative, looking back at previous years, what are some of the fond memories? If you have fond memories?

Duan Jackson  
Of course, I do. Matt, yes, I have amazing memories. And I think it's just the lifelong friendships and just watching this conference evolve. I mean, the very first conference we had was at Cal State, California State University, Dominguez, Dominguez Hills, actually, and we had one day on campus, and the second day and in Redondo Beach. And it was phenomenal. And I don't even think we charged to be honest with you, or if we did, it was so minimal. It was just a very minimal fee. But oh my gosh, the breakout sessions, the one and and the then chair of that committee was phenomenal. She has since retired, but she just, she laid the groundwork in the foundation. And I can't, I can't go without mentioning Dr. Nathan Evans, who is our Deputy Vice Chancellor of Academic and Student Affairs, and he is our chief academic officer. It was his brain child. He was the one that said, we will do this. And we're just like, yes, we will, you know, so we had him speak last year at the conference for the 10th anniversary, which was the NACADA region nine conference, where we partnered with him, and he came back and sort of kicked its, kicked this off, and did a phenomenal job, but it was all from for me, it was really recognizing him, and this, this vision that he had, that we made happen. And today I see him, and I'm just so excited that it still exists in a different form, and then now we've sort of, he's transitioned, and sort of handed the baton off to our our other Deputy Vice Chancellor, who's the Academic and Student Affairs here at the Chancellor's office, but she's the Chief Student Affairs Officer, so it's sort of, she'll kick us off At the conference on day one, giving the welcome and really thrilled that she's going to have this opportunity to see this great community come together. 

Matt Markin  
You were mentioning connections. And, I mean, that's where, you know, we had Charlie Nutt, that was the keynote speaker for the first two, two years of that conference. But I got to meet you at the second conference that was in Davis, and that's what kind of our friendship came up.

Duan Jackson  
And I will never forget that that was, that was a great conference as well. We had transitioned it to Northern California, and it was Sac State UC Davis, and had never been on that campus, really beautiful campus, and and I met Matt, and it went, you were a recipient of our, I think, our first show, yeah. And so to be able to meet you, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, you're amazing. And so I've never, I've never letting you go, Matt. So it's one of those things where I think we instantly formed this friendship and and that's been the beauty of the collaborative slash calcan is just I have formed so many great friendships and relationships across the state, actually, and to be able to See you grow and develop, and what being on podcast 100 and what did you say? And the things that you've done, having been the former chair of NACADA region nine, I'm just so amazed and just excited and proud of the work that you've done and what you've accomplished. And hopefully maybe at the time, calcan played a little smaller collaborative at the time, played a small part in pushing you to just sort of say, hey, I need to be out there and and and and doing more, and putting myself and look at what you've accomplished. I just think it's great. 

Matt Markin  
Oh, no, I say it, it had a huge impact on like, getting me out there. So just like you're saying, you know, getting the scholarship was great because it let me go to the conference, right? But it was also because one of the ones that I liked about the scholarship at the time was, whoever got the scholarship, you had to do something afterwards, like either write a blog post or. Or, you know, participate in the next conference or volunteer things like that. So people got to, you know, pay it forward. You know, getting the scholarship, which I thought was fantastic, but it allowed me then to be on the steering committee for the California Collaborative time now CAL-CAAN, and just that experience alone was what gave me a foundation and prep for things that I was able to do in NACADA, with NACADA region, I being a chair, being a conference co chair, so calcan definitely has a place for me, and it really jump started a lot. So yeah, so it had a big, big, big impact. But I want to end the podcast kind of maybe make it a little bit more personal as well for you is, you know, you completed your doctoral degree, you know, can you share a little bit about about that program, that experience, what it was like?

Duan Jackson  
Absolutely, I it was something I've always wanted to do. I didn't necessarily feel like I needed to do it per se for my career, but I had been referred to as Dr Jackson for some time now. I'm like, I don't have a doctorate. I'm thinking, was that just the foreshadowing? Do I foreshadowing? Do I need to go get this degree? And I decided to go back to school, and started really thinking about applying right before the pandemic happened, and then we were kind of all sent home, and I'm thinking, Okay, what now? And so I was, I applied to, and I and people like, why Arizona? I attended the University of Arizona. It was their one program. It was on. They had a few online programs, but this was their online doctorate. It wasn't part of their Global Campus, because that hadn't happened yet, and I had had an opportunity to meet with the faculty in the College of Education. And because of the pandemic, their PhD program was actually completely online, but once they were able to go back to school, I would have needed to move to Arizona, leave my job. And I was like, well, that's not going to work. So I decided to do the EdD program, and it was the best decision I have ever made in my entire life. I met the most phenomenal people from around the world, actually, and it was just a perfect fit. I will say the program wasn't any easier because it was online, but it was just more convenient. But we worked our butts off, if you could see, if I could say that. But also, I think what was, what they were so phenomenal, is creating community. And I had the most amazing chair of my dissertation who pushed me and two of the most phenomenal committee members on my dissertation committee, and was really passionate about my my topic, and so that made it easier. It took a while for me to figure it out, because I thought, am I am, like an include advising, or was how advising is going to fit in it. But I really, completely, I went in a different direction. I was able to incorporate some advising, but I really was talking about the student and who we were going to serve in the future. And so I was just thrilled about everything. I flew to Arizona to participate in my commencement ceremony. So I was able to go and experience that whole, you know, campus. I we had a convocation in the morning and the larger graduation in the evening, and I met all the people had only seen online, in person, and they flew from all over the country, from Texas to Illinois, from Georgia. So I am just thrilled. I can't I. I would encourage anyone, if it's something they've been wanting to do, to absolutely do it, find the right program and just go for it. Yeah, yeah. I don't know from glowing, because I'm just so thrilled. 

Matt Markin  
I have to ask you now, because you know you you went to your graduation for that, you know, but prior to being at the Susie chancellor's office, you were at Long Beach, so on a Cal State campus with students, right? Being a Chancellor's Office, you're working with those who work with students being on the Arizona campus and going to graduation. Did it that memories flood in, in terms of, like, being back at Long Beach and, you know, being around students, absolutely.

Duan Jackson  
I mean, I'm fortunate. I have three degrees from Cal State, Long Beach I participated in. I love commencement. I just think it's the most phenomenal thing ever to see our students complete their degrees and walk across the stage. And I knew that I was going to commence because I had to meet these people that had only seen online. I said, I don't. I will scrape whatever together and and I did. It was, it wasn't that big of a problem, but I'd never been to. Tucson. And I just thought, oh my gosh, I'm going to go to Tucson and and I had thoughts of it one point, like I said, just moving there completely and finishing and just being a student and not having to work, but getting there on the campus first. It's massive, oh my gosh. It's just, and that's big. A is splattered all across the city. I just had no idea that this is truly a college town. So I just thought, Oh my gosh. I hadn't, I mean, I knew it was a great school, but just to see how it is, just the whole community is just absorbed with, you know, Arizona and just massive. This the stadium itself, is just massive. Everything is just and it's in this kind of condensed area where you're just watching all, you know, these large buildings with this big A but it was, it was great to be and have that experience. I would have been devastated had I known what I was going to experience, and would have missed, you know, and missed it so, so grateful for that opportunity. And I would just encourage anyone, if it's something they're thinking about, go for it. Um, but be thoughtful. It was a lot of work, you know, if it's not what you feel like you need to do, then, don't, you know, for me, it was like the book end, in a way, I really wanted to make sure that I was walking away and I could learn as much as I could learn. And I would like, again, working with phenomenal faculty members in their college of education. They're well known, regarded scholars, and a colleague from Long Beach who actually encouraged me and connected me with the faculty there, so I was able, they were able to have conversations with me, and they're like, well, you should just come here. Well, I'm kind of working, you know, so it made it a little bit difficult, but, um, definitely doable. And if you talk to me, I'm going to be I will try to talk you to go into going back to school. Stay away from me if you don't want to go to school.

Matt Markin  
Or it's like, oh, my phone's ringing. Sorry, I gotta take this back. Well, great way to end this interview, Duan, I appreciate you being back on the podcast. Amazing stuff that you and your team are doing at the Chancellor's Office. It's a pleasure to work with you on the steering committee for calcan and looking forward to this conference in March. So Duan. Thank you for being on the podcast again. 

Duan Jackson  
Thank you so much, Matt. You are such a pleasure to work with. I'm so excited for you, and I'm grateful for this opportunity. So thank you.