The Evolution and Legacy of Academic Advising - Adventures in Advising

In this episode, Ben Hopper from the NACADA Executive Office shares information about the upcoming NACADA Region Conferences and why you should attend. Then, Dr. Tom Grites, a founding member of NACADA and retired provost from Stockton University, discusses his journey from a high school athlete to a higher education professional, highlighting his roles in academic advising, residence life, and his contributions to the NACADA organization. Grites reflects on the evolution of academic advising and the challenges of balancing institutional demands with student needs. Guest hosted by Ryan Scheckel, Texas Tech University.

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
Welcome to another episode of The Adventures in Advising podcast. This is Matt Markin, and from time to time we have some guest hosts, and we have some fantastic interviews you know that we have on this podcast. And today I'm going to turn it over to Ryan Scheckel from Texas Tech University, who has a very interesting guest that he'd like to interview today. So Ryan, how are you I'm good. How are you doing? 

Ryan Scheckel  
Matt, good, good. 

Matt Markin  
So I'm going to turn it over to you and have a great conversation. 

Ryan Scheckel  
I appreciate it. You know, as somebody who's been doing advising as long as I have, sometimes it feels like there are some folks who require no introduction, but, you know, there are some conventions, some things that we typically do on the podcast. So I'm thrilled to have a chance to talk with Dr. Tom Grites He served as Assistant Provost for Stockton University for 43 years, managing academic orientation, First Year Experience efforts and transfer student initiatives, and he continues to teach his transfer seminar course as well. Tom is, as a lot of you are aware, a founding member of NACADA, served as its president and serves as Senior Editor of the NACADA journal and the NACADA review editorial board. Dr. Grites has written and contributed to numerous professional publications, delivered over 150 conference presentations, workshops, and conducted program reviews on over 100 campuses. Tom earned his bachelor's and master's degrees from Illinois State University and his PhD in College Student Personnel Administration and higher ed from the University of Maryland. Both institutions have granted him Alumni Awards. Understandably, he was inducted into the Illinois State College of Education Hall of Fame in 2007 was recognized as a national Institute for the Study of transfer students. Transfer champion. In 2015 he received the 2021 NACADA region 2 award for Outstanding Contribution to scholarship, and the region now provides the service to region two award in his name. And last year, in 2024 Tom was recognized with the Lifetime Achievement Award from the American College personnel Association, ACPA, and the Distinguished Alumni Award from Illinois State. Tom. Thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Tom Grites  
Thank you for that introduction.

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, it's you know, as I've gotten to know you in preparation for this podcast, but of course, over the years, there's so many things that are left out. I know everybody who is a part of this higher education experience often feels like it's the bullet points on a resume, it's the items that go on the CV, but we all know that those don't tell the whole story. So that's one of the joys of this podcast format that I've learned over the years from Matt and of course, listening to other podcasts, podcasts and these sort of longer form approaches, is we have a chance to tell the rest of the story. To borrow a phrase, I guess, and that was sort of my interest. When Matt asked if I would like to interview you, I was one honored for the opportunity, and super glad when you accepted. And so we're gonna we're gonna talk through some of the things that I know have been discussed in different ways here or there, posts on the Nakata clearing house, or interviews on the presidential perspectives podcast from NACADA, or whatever, I'm going to try for our audience to make sure we hit those highlights, but I also want to talk a little bit about just what it was like being an advisor with the career that you've had, not just the highlights, but working with students and collaborating with other colleagues. One of the typical questions that is asked is, What is your higher education journey? I'm particularly interested what a pre college Tom Grites was like. How did you decide on schools and majors going to grad school? Who were your advisors?

Tom Grites  
Well, that's been a long journey, but there were. I always like to say that things were all my career has been circumstantial. Events happened, circumstances occurred, and fortunately, in hindsight, I took advantage of those. And when I was in high school, you know, I thought about college, but I really wasn't intrigued by it as as you know, as an entity for me, but I was a good athlete, and so I figured, well, and my dad always said, You need to go to college. And my high school football coach was probably the most instrumental in terms of getting me involved in going to college. He actually drove me to Illinois State to meet the coaches there of the sports, football and track, primarily, track is what I excelled in, but I didn't play football one year in college also. So he was enabled me to get, I think, four or five scholarships at combined athletic, academic. Scholarships to various institutions. So I don't want to go into that entire study, but I accepted a free ride from Danville, Illinois, where I grew up, out to Golden Colorado, to the Colorado School of Mines to start my college career and my football and track career. Well, Colorado School of Mines is was then, and it still is now strictly an engineering school, and I found out that even though I was a good high school student, I you know, I was in much tougher competition at the college level, so I barely ended up my freshman year with a 2.02 I believe it was something like that, and had decided, you know, that I was not going to make it there. So that was probably an event, an event or a circumstance, that cued me into making some changes. I actually dropped out of school for a semester, worked on the railroad as a brakeman, and then decided to transfer to Illinois State. So I went there and well, let me back up one second in terms of careers. I know you asked about careers when I was in still in high school, grade school and high school, my professional ambition was to be a professional bowler, because I really enjoyed that, and I was pretty good at it, but I had to. I had to give it up to play sports in high school, I was ineligible. I would have been considered a professional at that time because there was money involved. So money is greatly involved now in college sports, but then it wasn't allowed, actually, in the state of Illinois. So that's why I switched careers after that, after I started thinking about things and decided, Okay, I'll try this engineering thing, not knowing what it was all about. When I came back and, you know, was out of school for a semester and got laid off from the railroad for a while, I decided, Okay, I'm gonna go back to school. And I always was good at math. So I thought, well, you know, maybe I could be a good math teacher. So I'll, I'll go back to go back to college, to a different college, but major in math and, you know, and play sports and, you know, chart another career. But that changed also, so I don't know how much more you want me to pursue the career, but I'll let you dictate that,Ryan.

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, that's one of the things we share in common, is the background in math. And I taught math before I came to academic advising, before I came to higher education. I taught math and the correctional system here in the state of Texas and, and again, it was sort of that, you know, I'm interested in, what are the career outcomes, what is feasible, what's available, sort of a pragmatic approach to career exploration, you might say. And, and so when I, when I read that in a previous interview, I was like, oh, you know, did you ever get a chance to teach math in a classroom setting?

Tom Grites  
Well, yes, and I declined it. I actually, as I was when I was doing my student teaching, I really enjoyed working individually with students. So I decided maybe I was, you know, would like to be a guidance counselor and work with students. So I pursued and completed a master's in secondary school counseling at Illinois State as well. And I finished that degree still didn't know what I wanted to do, so I quickly sent a note to my old high school and said, Hey, could you use a math teacher, football coach, track coach, you know, and all these things. And they said, sure, and sent me a contract. During that time, I had been encouraged by people at Illinois State to pursue a career in higher education, but I didn't really know anything about higher education. But one position was as a residence hall director that I was steered toward at Eastern Michigan University, and I interviewed for that was offered the job, declined the job, and decided, no, I'll go back and teach in high school. Well, these stories are complicated and lengthy, so I try to shorten them. Lot of things happen in between. But you know how you get reimbursed or going to interview at jobs mostly? Well, I never got my reimbursement check from Eastern Michigan. Again, so I sent him an email. Well, no, probably no, I called, because there was no email at that time. I called, you know, and the guy who had interviewed me and offered me the job called me back and he said, Hey, you know that job is still available. You know, we'd like to have you come as a resident Residence Hall Director in a men's residence hall so forth. And so I said, Okay, so I accepted the job, sent the contract back to my high school, took off for Eastern Michigan, and that's where I how and where I started my career in higher ed, was as Residence Hall Director, and got engaged in in, you know, higher ed and working with college students, and that really, you know, really set me on my on my path. So I stayed, I was at Eastern Michigan for two years. Decided I wanted to move ahead into a doctoral degree, because I was encouraged by, actually, by the President of Eastern Michigan that I was not going to advance very well in higher ed if I didn't get a PhD. So I started looking around and ended up gladly going to college park, the University of Maryland, and went there as assistant director of housing. Was there not even a year, and was invited to become the first Director of Housing at UMBC, which was a brand new institution at that time, and I was the first, first Director of Housing there, and had two residents, one under one built and one underway. During that year, I spent a lot of time interviewing and going to conferences, interviewing people to build up a staff. And near the end of the year, the chancellor is the head administrator at the branch campuses of the University of Maryland decided he was not going to fund any of that expansion. So I said, you know, I spent all my time and effort in this and saw the opportunity that I had gained through my previous years of experience in, you know, in Residence Life, as it's called now housing. Then that I was really disappointed. So I'd already started my doctoral program at Maryland, so I got in touch with the Associate Dean of the College of Education and asked if she still had any internship assistantships available because I needed to have some kind of income. So she she said, Well, I given out all of my assistantships, but we've got a full time job available if you're interested in that in the Dean's office, you know. So I said, All right, let me come down and interview for it. So I did, and I decided I would take that job. You know, sounded sounded like fun, and what it ended up being the job that I was in. I don't need to go into the details, but what it ended up being was academic advising in the Dean's office, basically hearing appeals, helping students who were in trouble, academically clearing students for graduation in the College of Education and so forth. So I got much more involved in in academics on the academic side of the institution, and really, really enjoyed it. And then, you know, started reading some of the literature and going to conferences and so forth, that that's what got me hooked on, on academic advising. So that's how I got into it again, all circumstantially. You know, never planned anything like that.

Ryan Scheckel  
And you know, part of me having read and heard the the journey before knowing my own path to academic advising and and what I've heard from colleagues at conferences and read through their experiences. You know, this is a common theme for for academic advising and people who are doing that work oftentimes. And so I hope that perhaps for some folks who might be hearing Tom's story for the first time, they have a chance to see that, you know, for somebody who's been doing it for as long as you have, and in the ways that you have that we have so much in common in our stories. One of the things that we don't have in common, though, is you had a bit of a multi organizational career, engaging and connecting and leading in both ACPA and NACADA. What roles have those organizations played in your life, including, but not limited to conference attendance and positions that you've held?

Tom Grites  
Well, I learned about ACPA when I was when I started my career at Eastern Michigan. I'd heard about. It. And then, when I got involved in advising, ACPA was the only organization that would accept conference programs, conference proposals on academic advising. You know, nobody had heard of it. Nobody really knew what it was. Nobody cared about it, I guess, in some, some sense, but I did, and, you know, went ahead and I joined ACPA, went to a couple conferences, made a couple presentations, was was named to one of the boards on one of the commissions. At that time, they used the commission language that we used to use in NACADA, which I brought over from ACPA to NACADA. So ACPA has always been, you know, the foundation of my getting involved with with Student Affairs. So I just maintained, eventually, was elected to a position that I didn't intend to win, because the Vice President was running against me, and I figured he would, you know, he would win that election easily. Well, he didn't. I did, and here I was. By that time, we had also started thinking about an association being NACADA, and when I was president of NACADA I was also chair of this commission. So I had two leadership roles at the same time in two different institutions. So I owe a lot to ACPA in terms of the what I was able to learn through organizational structures and that kind of thing that really has helped, and I've still maintain friendships with people that that I worked with in ACPA. I don't know if you knowSusan or read any of her work, but she was the vice president that I reported to in ACPA when I had that position, and we've kept in touch because she came the became the head of the department that I got my doctorate in later on at Maryland. So I've been a member of ACPA longer than I've been a member of NACADA, because NACADA has only been in existence for 40 some years. 

Ryan Scheckel  
My first position in academic advising was in 2002 and I attended my first annual conference in Dallas in 2003 my first introduction to a professional organization was NACADA at an annual conference, admittedly very accessible because it was in my state And only about five hours from where I worked. But you know, the context, the history, the relationship between the organizations, has something, has been something that's always been interesting to me, that I've presented on and I'm writing about, in particular, ACPA, I'm not sure how familiar with its history was originally the National Association of appointment secretaries, so like student teaching appointment and then became the National Association of Dean of women's deans of women, and then became an ACPA.

Tom Grites  
NADAC, yeah, national, National Association of women's deans and counselors.

Ryan Scheckel  
And and that's that heritage is part of the heritage that informs, not only the sort of logistical of, how does the association work, what language do we use in the way that we group ourselves? And that sort of stuff, not just in the the people who've learned to lead, or learned patterns and approaches from one association and brought them to the the next, but also philosophically. You know, what do we conceive of our work? Where do we place our work in a values structure of larger higher education contexts? And that's, that's part of, I know, stuff that you've spoken on before, in particular in your president's perspectives podcast with David Spight and about, you know, the the context of what is a profession, who agrees that it's a profession, and those sorts of things. But there's a long line that stretches from deans of women and and what it means to do the kind of work in higher education that is maybe more student centric than knowledge centric, or less expertise and more service or caring roles, or whatever your doctoral degree includes the term college student personnel. What can you tell us about that school of thought, the Student Personnel perspective, and how it's influenced you professionally?

Speaker 1  
Well, at the time, you know, when I went into the doctoral program, that was the title of the of the degree program within the College of Education. And I think what, what that really meant was the personnel part, where the people who were were working in Student of. Affairs. So that's why, how it became, you know, student affairs, personnel, or the personnel part is the people who do those jobs and the student development, which is now the term that I use most frequently. You know, rather than just student personnel. So one thing I just want to pick up on that too. A quick thing, I changed my my dissertation topic from when I got involved in advising in the College of Education. I had been planning to do something in college housing, and I had proposal and everything ready to go, and then I decided, you know, I like this other thing better. So I did my change my whole dissertation topic to and saved it for a publication after I finished, as many people do when they finish their their dissertations, and I saved that for the first edition of the NACADA journal that it was was actually published in. But anyway, that's how I got, you know, got more involved in the academic component as well. 

Ryan Scheckel  
I'm sure there are folks out there who are like I was in the middle of my my master's degree and changed path on my thesis or dissertation again, stories that we share in common in our field, for sure.

Speaker 1  
The other thing that I've that I was going to mention with respect to the dissertation, a person who never gets recognized in the advising literature is Melvene Hardee. Is never quoted, and she wrote the first major publication on academic advising. It's called the faculty advising in higher education. She was a VP of Student Affairs at Florida State, and she wrote the first piece that reflected, or that many pieces later on reflected what she was saying at that time, but she gets no credit for that. Burns Crookston and Terry O'Banion are the ones who get credited with the early literature, and they deserve it well as well. I was fortunate enough to meet and chat with with Burns Crookston when I was doing my dissertation, or maybe I had just finished it, you know. So I was able to sit down with him and say, you know, I quoted you in my dissertation. And Terry O'Banion and I, we still are in contact, you know, with each other. So, you know, a lot of those historical persons and events and so forth ring very true when you asked me about reflecting. You know, it's always fun to reflect on on all those companions and friendships that I made and professional development that I'd learned. You know, through those people.

Ryan Scheckel  
I know you've told the story about meeting Toni Trombley at ACPA in 1977 countless times. Yes, yes. And it's out there for folks to read, you know, drawing the line of organizational participation and in the development of NACADA as an organization. But I'm kind of curious what you recall about that particular meeting and that time in the development of academic advising, what were the conversations like among colleagues and across institutions? 

Speaker 1  
Toni's story is interesting, and I never knew this part of it until 25 or 30 years later, after I was at a conference with her in Burlington again, and I said, you know, why did you start this conference? And she had a very, very cogent, uh, explanation. She said she was just appointed as Director of Advising at the University of Vermont. She didn't know anything about it. There was no literature, there were no conferences or whatever, very few, very little. And she said, and she was visiting all these campuses to find out what people were doing, and she said she got the idea. She said, I'm tired of going out and meeting people, I'm going to bring them to me. And that's what enabled her to get the funding at her her campus to start and have that very first conference, and 250 people at that conference from all over the country. When they heard about it and came to it that they she had turned away people. She turned away Virginia Gordon wouldn't let Virginia Gordon come to the conference because she didn't have any room. They didn't have any more hotel rooms. They didn't have any more rooms, enough room in the hotels the meeting. Rooms and so forth. So she was one of the people that was turned down to come to that first conference. But I frequently have said, the energy that was obvious, you know, at that conference, people started talking right away, we've got to have an association. We have to have our own association. And and the impetus was, you know, was begun there when we formed a steering committee, and it wasn't until two years later that NACADA actually became an association, a fully fledged association. So we did a lot of work by phone call and US mail to do everything, all the program reviews and, you know, solicitations and all that was done by a US Mail and and phone calls, you know, at that time. But she had quite a rationale that I never knew, you know, until 25 years later. It made so much sense I'm going to bring these people to me. I'm tired of traveling all over the country, you know, you know, so it that's how it all worked, and that's how it started, and has come together. And I'm still in touch with Toni as well. 

Ryan Scheckel  
Fantastic. You know? I know that the I'm trying to remember I went to trying to look back real quick in some of the documents, publications and articles that I've found, digging through the history of like the roots of academic advising, at least in the United States, there was, it might have been a director for college student personnel in the 50s, perhaps, who was asking questions about faculty advising. I think they might have referred to it as faculty counseling or academic counseling, but they did a similar thing, where they toured schools that they felt were peer or aspirant, sort of comparison, set and just conducted interviews and then shared their findings. And so you know, the the the options as it were, to communicate and collaborate and to share information and best practices certainly were different. But from from your perspective, what were the biggest challenges facing academic advisors in the late 70s and early 80s compared to today?

Speaker 1  
Well, I think probably identity was, was one of the first things you know that you know, who are these people? What is this group? You know that that is now encroaching upon some of the other work that have been done, because it was all faculty advising for many years. A colleague of mine at the time was one had one of the first advising centers at then Glassboro State College, which is now Rowan University, but he had one of the first advising centers in the country. But it was unknown, basically unknown at that time. But, you know, everything just just kept evolving as we moved along. We knew we needed a journal, or we wanted a journal because we needed something that would would focus on academic advising, by it, by itself. So two things. First of all, my very first publication was in the NASPA journal, okay, and NASPA was not a supporter of academic advising, but they did accept my proposal for a journal article, which appeared, I think, in 1977 the same year that the first conference was and then the other, the big landmark, I guess, in my career, is being involved with Ted Miller and Roger Winston in writing The developmental advising book, because just doing that and working with those two people, you know, really got me more enthusiastic, but but more knowledgeable about the underlying theories and opportunities and so forth for academic advising as a real stronghold in higher education. So I have lot of credit to be given to to them as well.

Ryan Scheckel  
And I know it's it's sort of on the surface an obvious question about how your approach, your understanding of advising has evolved over the years because of the doing of it, and the nature, the context, and that sort of stuff. But reading four by four advising model from a journal article in 1977 I'm kind of curious you know what how you're thinking on advising has changed since that first publication. 

Speaker 1  
The major change, I think, adjustment, or change, you know, was with writing that being a part of that developmental advising book. And you know, I've written about it since then a few times you know about that concept. You know, takes into consideration every single student, their academic life, their career life, and their personal life, and that personal life got a lot of criticism. People were calling advising, counseling. You know, it's, you know, it's not, not what it's it's just about academics and so forth. So, you know, I have maintained those three legs of the stool, if you will. You know, as the foundational work, which Hardee's work didn't use those exact terms, but the concepts were pretty much the same. You know, the the personal, academic and career aspects of a student's life. And you know, I still argue today that, you know you're still engaged when you're advising academic advisors are still in order to do their job, well, have to be engaged in all of those areas, because that's what the students are engaged in. They're engaged in trying to complete an academic program, to be able to go into a career that they aspire to, and many of them change to several times and their personal lives. You know, it can't be discounted. You know, especially now we see everything with the the need for child care, the the financial situation that's that individuals are in, you know, daycare, all of those kinds of things come into play, and you can't, you can't set those aside and not consider those in The academic advising process. So I think for me, those three legs have remained, you know, with with me the whole time, and I've always approached my advising that way. One statement I like to make, and I may I ended my acceptance speech at ACPA several months ago is that I had, I haven't reported in student affairs for over 50 years, but I do student development work every day, and that's how I approach my work, Whether it's working, you know, being on a committee, doing a presentation, writing an article, what, sitting and talking with a student, and now I'm still advising part time with our student athletes, you know, so I still maintain that same attitude, those same perspectives, and try to put them into play, you know, or at least understand them as I move along, and I appreciate all of the work, like appreciative advising, and, you know, intrusive advising, that was the term Bob Glennon used many years ago, and Some of the other kinds of things, you know, other labels that have been given to academic advising. And I look at them, and I read them, and I say, you know, they still come back to this. I still come back to the same thing. What they're talking about is developmental academic advising, you know, talking about those three legs. So that's been my, you know, my guideline, you know, since I get what, 83 or 84 when we published that book, absolutely, and doing it was, you know, is where I learned so much and and got more insights into, you know, the advising process.

Ryan Scheckel  
Yeah, I noticed quite a bit of your work, certainly not all of it, but quite a bit of it. There is that, that thread of transfer students, not just the recognition, but but also your work examining the transfer student experience, sort of building out approaches and understanding. Would you say that comes largely from the circumstances of where you were at the time, or from your own experiences changing institutions? 

Speaker 1  
Both. But it was more, the more the the current you know, working through it and working with transfer students and then realizing, Hey, I was a transfer student and I didn't, didn't necessarily have those same experiences, you know, but now, but I appreciate the the value that transfer students bring to an institution, and certainly not to discard the finance. Potential value that they bring to the institution. And that's what's being recognized, and that's what I'm concerned about, is that academic advising is being considered, you know, the silver bullet for retention rates and so forth, and that the focus and the funding and everything else gets geared toward that, that retention number and is taking what taken away from the three, the full three components of the developmental approach. We need numbers, and I understand why. I understand why that happens, but I see that as a as a challenge to the future of academic advising, that there that academic advising programs and academic advisors are going to be directed in some ways to increase the retention rates. 

Ryan Scheckel  
We share those concerns. I think we tend to, for those of us who spend time in the history, theory and philosophy sides of the field, examining the work that is done from those perspectives, I also know that the day to day academic advisor feel those feels those pressures too and and you know, some of those folks who are doing that work don't quite have the the time and position or the length of career that you've had. So I'm curious about, you know, your perspectives on what somebody might do to balance those pressures, if they identify with the student, development, changing lives, being an educator, seeing learning happen and then the institution and their interests and other structures that play in place Like funding and legislation stuff, how would the new practitioner, the new advisor, balance those pressures from your point of view.

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, that's, that's a that's a tough question, and it's a tough challenge, you know, to balance those things. And I think new people coming in, if it's their first advising position, maybe they did an internship or an assistantship or something like that, but to get a full time position, you know, as an academic advisor, it's going to be eye opening to see what the expectations and in some cases, demands are depending upon the institution. But I think the one thing that I always would want academic advisors to keep in mind is their own professional development, and their colleagues professional development. Part of that professional development is also reaching out to others to better explain to them and help them understand the overall advising process, rather than just the nuts and bolts, you know, graduation requirements. That's what academic advising is, making sure students get, you know, meet their academic requirements. That's certainly a big part of the job, but it's, it's certainly not the only, the only part, and that's where I think new advisors, you know, have to come to that realization, you know, and then start working on their own understanding their own situations and make it work for them when they're bound to, you know, a 20 minute meeting, and then I got, you know, five minutes often another 20 minute meeting and another five minutes off in another 20 minute meeting. It's pretty hard to have any kind of professional development, you know, especially at the peak times you do get, you know, everybody does get a little bit of a low period in their registration programs, but on a day to day basis, you know, it's, you know, filling those boxes, you know, and unfortunately, not being able to have the conversation about, why? Why do you want to do this? Why do you want to have this major you know? Why do you want to take this course when you've got 12 other options, why did you choose that one, and we know what the answers are. Well, it's, I work, you know, 60 hours a week, so I've got to work around my schedule. And that's the only course that was available that I could, I could take, even though they hated the course, didn't want to take the course at all. So the you know, but unfortunately, that dominates the conversation. It takes a while that relationship building through the process and helping students come in with with good questions, and asking some of those questions to themselves, of themselves, rather than having us always challenging with those those kinds of questions.

Ryan Scheckel  
The last time I was on this podcast, Matt had asked if I'd be interested in interviewing ChatGPT about the nature of academic advising and and, you know, one of the promises of technology tools like AI and advising platforms and that sort of stuff is that they will free up advisors to do more of that critical thinking and that more emotive connecting the human side of advising. I'm just curious about your thoughts on that promise and the potential of AI tools and advising?

Speaker 1  
Well, I haven't. I haven't seen it in operation that clearly with academic advising, I've seen it in my in teaching, in my class, ChatGPT is all over the place, you know, you know, in all the papers, mine is a writing class, and they use ChatGPT. So I'm getting a little frustrated, you know, with that. I haven't seen it that that use that much sort of comparing it to using degree audits and early alert programs and those kinds of things. That technology, I think is very useful, you know, and can be used. I haven't seen it being used Chat,GPT specifically, in any proposals or anything like that. But, of course, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm not full time, I'm not engaged in the campus all the time, except through the classroom. So I tried to think about what, what would it be? Well, how would that help? It might help, perhaps ChatGPT I'm talking about now might help in because I played with it a little bit, developing program proposals, you know, grant proposals, those kinds of things. It might be well used in those kinds of circumstances. On a day to day basis, I'm not seeing anything other than what's already in place, like the early alert programs and the obviously the degree audits you know are, are the two most common and probably most used and most helpful, whether they be full time, you know, professional academic advisors or faculty advisors. One thing about when we talk about it's one thing that people get lost in the in the concept of advising. And I always, I guess that's because I work with faculty for so long. You know that there are probably more faculty advisors across the country, and I'll just stick with the US now, then there are full time advisors, you know, and that the full time the faculty members are kind of excluded from certain kinds of professional development, or don't want it, you know, or don't even want to advise. You know, our contract, you know, at Stockton requires them to be advisors, preceptors. We use that term, but we have, we have made some changes in that, in that while I was still full time, you know, we did encourage and get the deans to agree that even though the contract says everybody has to advise, first time, faculty members don't get advisees. They get mentored by somebody and else in the faculty who's who's been around, you know? And you know, not every faculty member wants to do that, and some are very, you know, eager to do that, you know, so. 

Ryan Scheckel  
We are a like mind, an opportunity that understanding, representing, especially conducting inquiry around primary role faculty advisors, as opposed to primary role advisors and their experiences and their outcomes. I sat with a colleague, an advising colleague, at a state conference and a preconference workshop, and he leaned over and he said, I teach in electrical engineering, and I'm, he's like, I'm, this is my first advising conference. And he was like, Are they, is it like this? And you know, it was it was evident I'd been to multiple advising conferences. I was probably about 12 years into my career and and I was like, I understand the need to translate for our faculty advisor colleagues. And certainly folks who have interacted with people who advise in other countries are often what they call it personal tutoring or study advising might be, you know, they are our primary role, faculty, instructional faculty, in most cases as well. And you know, as your career has spanned as many years as it has concepts and frameworks that some of us just sort of take for granted as having always existed. They were developed. Helping and being understood. You know things like the scholar, practitioner, model and third space professionals that's come up in the last five or 10 years or so in higher education, especially globally. You know you as someone who has lived through not only the sort of social change of the time and the policy and higher education change, but also the professional growth and development of academic advising. I'm curious if, if you thought about this ever before, if you were to go back and advise yourself when you arrived at Illinois State, what advice would you have given yourself what? What approach would you have taken with a student that was brides arriving at Illinois State? 

Speaker 1  
You know, I would say, just look at every situation, every look at everything as an opportunity. You know? What does this provide for me as an opportunity? You know, I could go back into my Illinois state history and tell you of specific situations that you know that targeted me. I I have to do it now that I said it what my part time job at Illinois State was working in the mail room, and I was, I call it being a like a UPS type person. I delivered packages to all the different offices on campus. Okay, well, the Dean of Students was the first person who said, hey, you know, you ought to think about higher education. Went over my head, between my ears and out, I guess, you know, I didn't really know what he was what he was talking about. Then I was going to delivered mail to the psychology education and psychology, it was one department that time. The dean said, What are you going to do when you graduate? Said, I don't know. I've been thinking about about counseling, you know, guidance said, but I don't really have the GPA to get into grad school. He said, bring me your application. I brought me applications. You're in, okay, you're in the program. Okay, so that's how I decided to go, to go to grad school, you know, to finish a master's degree, you know. And while I was there, my advice, my advisor at that time, alerted me to the positions at Eastern Michigan, you know. So those, those were, you know, just opportunities. I also said the the dean who admitted me to the program said, Do you need an assistantship? And I said, I didn't know what that was. He said. He told me what it was. I said, okay, yeah, that sounds good to me. I can do that, you know. So I was a grad assistant for a psych faculty member, you know, for the year I was doing my my masters, you know. So I learned a lot going through there, but I just took those, those events, those opportunities, those conditions, situations, you know, and was able to parlay them into wherever it ended. I didn't know where it was going to end, but here I am. 

Ryan Scheckel  
Where you are is not just interesting because of the length of time, the people that you've collaborated with, the roles that you've held and and the significant, meaningful contributions you've made, but you also have the next generation of your family working in academic advising. Now, my wife is an advisor at our institution in our Honors College. Our kids are 15 and 12, and they've they've come to advising events or various things. They've heard us speak about advising ad nauseam. I'm sure, from their perspective, I don't know if they will ever aspire to advising work themselves, but you have someone in your family who does, and I'm curious what your thoughts were when Lindsay got involved in advising, got involved in Nakata and leadership role now as chair of the theory of philosophy and history of advising community, just what was that like for you as a person, as a parent, as a professional? 

Tom Grites  
Obviously very happy and very proud that she's doing well. But her ambition from age three was to be a dancer, a dance teacher, and as sure you probably know she her her bachelor's degree was in English and dance, two majors at Rutgers, masters in dance and higher ed from NYU in dance, and higher ed PhD from Temple. And she still teaches dance, you know. So she still enjoys that. And her goal, she was hoping to get a position. As a dance teacher in a college or university. That was her goal set at one point along that chain, along that educational chain. But those jobs are hard to come by, and she decided to apply for the job that she now has. And I really didn't. I didn't encourage or discourage her. And our grandkids, her her kids were too young. She obviously, she listened and watched and heard me, you know, for many years. And you know, picked up a lot of things from that, obviously, but so on the one hand, I, you know, I'm sorry that she wasn't able to fulfill her career, at least up to this point, her full career that she had planned for and edge was educated for, for that many years, and not being able to get a full time job as a dance teacher, you know, in higher ed, you know. She seems to enjoy what she's doing. Now, I encourage her to get involved in things. You know, that's that's part of the part of the job, right?

Ryan Scheckel  
Well, I know, having spoken with her and and her interest in the arts based ways of understanding our world. My involvement, I used to advise in our School of Art, and have been a part of the art exhibition for the last three years at the annual conference. I'm looking forward to when her dance background finds its way into the scholarship of academic advising, if she's anything at all, like her old man. I'm sure that this story isn't done, for sure. My last question for you is, you know, I know you're still advising, and I know you're still contributing, and so this concept of legacy sometimes feels like this finality sort of thing, but I'm curious what you what kind of legacy you would hope to leave in academic advising?

Tom Grites  
I guess one thing is the my advocacy for transfer students. You know, I hope that's what people kind of remember me for, in terms of on campus, as well as what I've written about and given presentations about and always call people's attention to, what are you going to do? How does that going to affect transfer students, you know? So my good friends at nists, you know, been very good supporters as well. So I would say that. And then just, you know, taking a look at every situation, even if it's negative, take a look at that and see what, what? What can this do for me? I've, I've applied for jobs that I didn't get, you know? I said, Okay, I didn't get that job. What do I do? Well, I'm going to continue what I'm doing, and that turned into 40 plus years.

Ryan Scheckel  
So Well, Tom thanks so much for joining us on the podcast, and again, for everything you've done, I look forward to our next conversation. I hope you have a great 2025 and and maybe we'll see you in Vegas. 

Tom Grites  
all right, good. Thanks. Thanks a lot. Ryan, thanks.