Maximizing the Role of Academic Advising - Adventures in Advising

Nathan Vickers, associate director for NACADA Consulting, discusses his 20-year career at The University of Texas at Austin before transitioning to the NACADA Executive Office. He'll also address how strategic, data-informed programs can maximize the role of academic advising. Dr. Zoranna Jones, assistant dean for student support at Texas Christian University, discusses navigating changes in higher education, diversity in leadership, and the future of academic advising. Guest host is Dr. Melinda Anderson, Achieving the Dream. 

Follow the podcast on your favorite podcast platform!

The Instagram, and Facebook handle for the podcast is @AdvisingPodcast

Also, subscribe to our Adventures in Advising YouTube Channel!

Connect with Matt and Ryan on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hey, this is Matt Markin, and welcome back to another episode of the Adventures in Advising podcast. We are at episode 110 and we have two interviews on this episode, and our first guest is so and many of you might know, and that is Nathan Vickers, unlike many of us, Nathan knew he wanted to be an academic advisor while he was still in college, he had the opportunity to work as an orientation advisor for his three summers, and as part of that position, was able to advise incoming students on first semester classes. After graduating, he spent a year in a position outside of higher ed, but was eager to return to his alma mater. To his good fortune, he was hired as an academic advisor in the Department of Government in the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Texas at Austin. This began a 20 year career where he worked his way up, eventually managing a team of four advisors representing five academic departments and two certificate credentials. Then he moved into the role of Assistant Director of Advising for the College of Liberal Arts while at UT Austin. Nathan was an active member of NACADA, holding multiple leadership positions, including Vice President. He was the first Advisory Board Chair for the newly created Emerging Leaders Program Advisory Board, and also served as a mentor to two emerging leaders. Now, Nathan serves as the Associate Director for NACADA consulting, a position he started just in July of 2024 joining this incredible group of dedicated colleagues has proven to be yet another highlight in his career. Nathan, welcome to Adventures in Advising.

Nathan Vickers  
Thank you, Matt. I'm so glad to be here. I really appreciate this.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and you know, we got to chat a little bit at the Pittsburgh conference. I'm sure I'll throw a question in there about the this past conference, but I think you got to tell us more about your background and already knowing that you wanted to be an academic advisor, because you're one of very few people I know that has been on the podcast that has said I knew in college I wanted to be an advisor. So expanding from your bio, tell us more about your higher ed journey.

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, it really, it was. It was big epiphany moment, and I remember having an opportunity. I was just meeting incoming first year student after another, just one after another, and the more I did it, even though I was getting tired because it, you know, it's tiring, after a while having all those conversations, I was so excited to see the next student, and I knew right then it was like, Okay, I had a really good relationship with my academic advisor in college. I love this, and it was just such an exciting opportunity to meet with these students and talk to them. And I really thoroughly enjoyed it. So I went to my academic advisor and had this so I think I'm interested in becoming an advisor. How did you get here? And like many academic advisors, her journey was not directly to academic advising, but yeah, I'd like I knew right away that this is something that I wanted to do and and it was just really kind of fueled by a whole day of appointments and loving every one of them. And that really, really encouraged me to pursue this.

Matt Markin  
And I know, like, after you graduate, you spent a year outside of higher ed, did that kind of help solidify, like, I think for sure, I want to be back in the higher ed realm and do academic advising.

Nathan Vickers  
Oh, 100% yes, it was a moment of realization of while I was good at the other job I was doing, it was not fulfilling me the same way that that academic advising was and being in higher education, and it I really, you feel that need, right, that pull. And I was really feeling that pull to get back. And so I was so eager to get back to to academic advising and working on a campus and being surrounded by students again, and so again. Luckily, it was just a year outside of higher education, and I was able to get back into it.

Matt Markin  
And you know, I guess you know, being at the University of Texas at Austin, 20 years at that institution. Did you ever think you'd spend 20 years working your way up at one institution?

Nathan Vickers  
No, no, because, I mean, in all of my years too, of knowing other higher education colleagues that you work your way up, and a lot of times it's like, you go here and then you go over here, and then you go over here, right? There's some of that that happens in higher education. And when I started, I never had any desire or thought of moving up, but it just sort of happened as as careers evolve, right? But, yeah, I never thought I would spend 20 years doing anything here. I was doing it before I and I blinked, and 20 years had gone by, and I realized that I'd had this incredible opportunity to work at this great school and be around all these great colleagues and learn so much. And so, yeah, 20 years like, boom, it happened.

Matt Markin  
And I know you can't give like. Specific type of answer to this question, because everyone's story is different. But, you know, having worked at one institution for 20 years, you know, there might be listeners who are at a crossroads. Maybe, you know, of like, do I stay at the institution? At I'm at, you know, I like my institution. I like where I work. You know, there's some room for growth, but maybe there's not so much of a career ladder. I appreciate the opportunities I've been able to have, but part of me maybe wants to leave. You know, sometimes society might say that, you know, you should diversify, you know your your career, and maybe move around. What do you say to something, to someone that might be at that crossroads?

Nathan Vickers  
You know, I would say, trust your gut and listen to what's really telling you, and what's really talking to you is it, do I want to move up and there's no space for me to move up here? Or did I have a bad day at my institution and I want to leave? Or is my institution a different institution than it was, and I don't really feel like I connect with this place anymore, you know, trying to kind of figure out where you are and if you're able to go somewhere. I mean, unfortunately, that's a can be a barrier too, right? Is whether or not you even are able to up and move somewhere or to go to another institution. But I say just, you know, trust yourself and understand fully what the pros and cons. I mean, this is seemingly simple as it could be to sit down and do the whole pros and cons list. Sometimes, when you start doing that, you start recognizing, well, either yes, or there are more cons. And I probably maybe I do need to move on or look at all of these pros. And I think that there's some room here in these pros where I could potentially grow or find some, some additional fulfillment, and then, if possible, maybe talk to a supervisor and say, Hey, I I'm really interested in growing these skills. Is there space here for me to do that right? And can I, can I start working on this? Can I start this initiative that I'm interested in doing, and hopefully the answer to that question is yes, right? And so you can start growing some of those skills and growing your portfolio and things like that.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, no, I definitely like the kind of like the list, list out what the pros and cons are. Maybe something additional to that could be. Are some of these pros or some of these cons? Are they something I anticipate will continue, or is it something more temporary, you know? So maybe that could be factored in into someone's decision?

Nathan Vickers  
sure, and that locus of control stuff too, like, can I control this? And you're right, is it going to follow me if I move somewhere else, you know, in Yeah. I mean, 20 years at UT was definitely had its ups and downs. I mean, I to be honest, and that was sort of how I always approached it is, if I ever got to a point in that time of, do I want to stay here, I would start thinking about, well, what's causing me to think this? I go to what, what's fueling that question, you know, and you know, 20 years i I stuck with it, and glad I did right? I learned so much while doing that. I really did.

Matt Markin  
Being there for 20 years? Can you talk a little bit more about, like, kind of your progression from starting as an academic advisor, as staff and then and working your way up through those 20 years?

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, you know, I starting off as the, you know, I think we hear them called, like the frontline advisors. That was sort of a term I think we hear, at least it was when I started being that person to see student after student after student. And I loved that. And I've always wanted to grow. And I'm always, always the kind of person who wanted to try new new things related to work, and expand on skills and learn new skills. And I was super fortunate to have a supervisor at the time who supervised that way. She was one of those that, you know, every so often duties in the office would sort of get, like, everyone would get up and shift one duty to the right kind of thing, right? It was sort of like, you know what, Matt, you've been doing this for a long time. I think we're going to let Jill do this now, you know, and just so that people can grow and add these skills to their their portfolio, and that just sort of spurred, like this constant, wanting to learn more and be more involved and stuff like that. And then being actively involved in Nakata helped so much too, because it was growing in this association and being able to bring those skills back to the office, and skills I learned in the office back to NACADA, like all of those just sort of melded together. And as I moved up, you know, my supervisor retired. I had been with him for 12 years, I think, yeah, 12 years in that office. I moved into her role, and then did that for a while, and then the assistant director position was actually a new position that was created by the Director of Advising, and she was her portfolio had gotten to the point where she needed help, right? And then she needed someone to come in and share the load, and they wanted. Someone to really focus on training, onboarding, professional development, intentional professional development, more specifically, right, and sort of making it where we're teaching new folks and constantly continuing the education of seasoned academic advisors and and that role I loved. That was my jam, and I was, I was so great to to be able to do that right, and to move into a new role and a great relationship with director, and we started collaborating right. And so that was sort of the way the journey happened. It was sort of a, you know, I wanted to to move up, and I wanted to do different things and grow my portfolio. And that really always started, I think, at the beginning having that supervisor so really encouraging everyone in her office to try new things. And, you know, we're going to move some duties around so you can, you can learn how to do this too. And, you know, and she would do the same thing, things that she had done for a long time, should move to somebody else, take on a new thing. And, you know, so kind of that that learned by example for that.

Matt Markin  
So let me ask you this, what if someone was like, I don't want to hurt something, something else I like, what I already am doing? Did they have a choice or? No? 

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, they would have a choice. Yeah, it was, it was never forced, right? And she would, she would want to. It was more of an encouragement, you know, if you want to learn new things, then let's, let's get new stuff on your, your your plate, where, where you have bandwidth, right? And if you've got some bandwidth, and you wanted to start an initiative, then cool, let's do it. Let's see how it goes, you know? And so that that was a really useful and helpful as I grew and learned more. And then you you just see different layers of higher education in different different points of view, and, you know, start working with different colleagues, and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. And so it's kind of spiraled, I guess, for lack of a better way of putting it, from there right into where I am now.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, I think the movement around is great, especially kind of keeps things fresh, and that's where a lot of the creative ideas come from. And you were mentioned with the assistant director, that was a new position. So were you the first in that role?

Nathan Vickers  
I was, yeah, I was the first position in that kind of role. They had had training coordinators before, but that was not a position that was sort of an assistant director role with a focus on training and development. So in addition to sort of your usual kind of administrative budget talks and the staffing talks and that, you know, those kinds of things that you have with doing your director or assistant director level, it was the focus, then was on training and development, versus it just being that like so that was a new, a new kind of role. So I was the first one in that kind of role that I know of anyway. And so it was a really cool opportunity to sort of make that as we kind of learned on the on the fly, as we were going through my with, with the Director of Advising. And again, she was really, really great, and she is really great, and don't work with her anymore, but she's fantastic. And, you know, she was really encouraging again. So I've had yet another supervisor who was super encouraging and really wanting me to do different things. And so, yeah, it was a lot of fun. I learned. I learned a lot too. Learned a lot.

Matt Markin  
So you're building the plane while it was flying. 

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, 1,000% 

Matt Markin  
Any highlights from your time as assistant director with, like, those job responsibilities, especially kind of just creating it from the ground up, and especially, like the professional development part, which I would assume a lot of your staff was probably very happy with, to have someone in that role and that being one of the responsibilities?

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, and, you know, the the training program for the college had been created years ago, and it was a really good and really robust training program. And it was one of those things that, like, there just wasn't someone who could dedicate 100% or most of their time really focusing on this, right? It was, it was, but it was great, and it really was. And so I had the opportunity to go in and and kind of got the encouragement, if you will, to like, well, let's look at this and see where, where can we improve? Where can we expand? Where can we alter? You know, this hasn't been altered a lot in a while. What can we do? And so that was a really cool opportunity to go and examine what had already been done and had been done well. And I was joked, it's like, we don't need to. We're not tearing down the house where we're we're just sort of redecorating in some places, right? And so, and then expanding it to a different platform so it was not it's a little bit more accessible, and then being able to create some professional development presentations on advising approaches, and creating an advising philosophy, and understanding how the core competencies and sort of. Were doing all those kinds of things, especially because we had a bunch of new advisors for at a time, and I wanted to be able to sort of go in and start, like creating a series of professional development opportunities that was very intentional for to talk about the core values, to talk about different advising approaches, to really start thinking about one's advising philosophy, and you know, understanding why you sit at your desk every day and talk to students, not just like, oh, I enjoy talking to students. Well, of course, but what's your philosophy behind talking to students? If someone says to you, Hey, Matt, explain to me what you do, being able to put some language to it right? And so that was a really fun set of presentations to put together. And yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed doing that. So some highlights there, and just the colleagues and just sort of working with the folks who are managing teams. So I moved from being one of the managers of one of the advising teams, as I was telling said earlier in the bio, to that role of the assistant director. So I was still working really closely with my they call them advising coordinators. Is what the position is. And I was still working with them, but my role changed now. So we were really talking about training and professional development of the advisors on their teams and for them and for other members, the student workers and, like, all of that kind of stuff. So it was a really cool opportunities to take a step back and see the room, a larger angle of the room, if you will.

Matt Markin  
And then you were mentioned earlier about NACADA. And, you know, I'm always curious to, like, when the NACADA start fitting into all of this, you know, like while at UT Austin, you were also moving and shaking with the NACADA. Do you remember what made you want to get involved in the organization?

Nathan Vickers  
I think I had a again, a boss who was really supportive, and she talked about it a lot. And it's interesting that my first year or so at the institution, working with her, she was NACADA president, so I had a really interesting view of of that, right and so, and I think just being more involved in getting the opportunity to meet some of the folks in NACADA and recognizing how great they were and what a supportive community. And, you know, big family that NACADA is, and this network, and it just, I got really interested in it right away, and my first leadership role was they were called interest groups then and now, in their advising communities that interest groups, and I co chaired an interest group for new advising professionals. And it's like so I'm now, I'm in a room, I'm running this, and now I kind of advising community for to use common our current wording of new professionals as a new professional. And so it was a really great opportunity to just to talk about and share our experiences and share resources and sort of talk about the ups and the downs and the struggles and the goods and the bads, and you know, all of that. And it was a really cool space to to learn together. And that was when I was totally hooked to see NACADA as this incredible place where we can learn and grow and network and share, and it's it's safe, we can talk about things together, and that we all have a common language that we speak. We all have some common experiences.

Matt Markin  
And you've held multiple leadership type positions within NACADA. So do any of those leadership roles rise to the top as whether they're most, most influential roles that that you've had, or any roles that stand out where you've learned the most?

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, I think that the the council, the board, and the vice presidency, the vice presidency, because I had the good fortune of being the vice president when with Dana Zahorik, who was president at the time, and we just had a really good partnership. And I think, you know, it's amazing when you've, when you're partnering with someone in a role like that, and you have this immediate like, like, it just, it just fits, you know, you just, and I'm sure you've had those experiences where you're, you're working with someone like, we work really well together, you know? And so that was a real highlight, and I enjoyed it very much. And I learned a lot the NACADA Council was, was a lot of fun to really be able to see the working of NACADA, right? I mean, you're seeing it all happen in front of you as a member of the NACADA Council. I think what taught me the most, they all taught me a lot, but the most influential was probably being on the board of directors and sort of that strategic thinking as I went into roles in at my institution that required more strategic thinking and larger picture kind of conversations, I really was able to draw on those skills that I. Had learned as a board member and talking about kind of down the road and strategic thinking and benchmarking and like all that kind of stuff. And so that was really helpful, and it was really influential, for sure.

Matt Markin  
And was it the Atlanta conference when you started as vice president?

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, yes, I think. Or was it when I was stepping down, it was 16 to 17, I think.

Matt Markin  
Okay, yeah. Cause I wanna Yeah. I wanna say Atlanta was 2016?

Nathan Vickers  
Was it? okay? Then yeah, it must have been when I was stepping in. 

Matt Markin  
And the reason I remember this is so, so I interviewed Dana Zahorik earlier in the year, very beginning of the year, and I was telling her the my story about her. So it was at the Atlanta conference. And it was probably at, I would assume it was the, oh, we were at, like, the awards reception, and like, you're at one of the back tables, and Dana was sitting there, and, you know, she introduced herself, as, you know, Dana from the institution that that she's at said nothing about being the Cotter president, or incoming president. And then she's like, oh, you know, I, I gotta take care of something else. So she left. And then, you know, we finished the award ceremony, then went to the keynote opening reception, and then there goes Dana on stage. And I'm like, so person that was at our table, yeah, President. But you know, she was saying, like, I didn't want to, you know, come out there be like, I'm Dana the incoming president, you know. And I was like, I totally get that, but it was, it was a huge surprise, but that's always my Dana story that I'm gonna tell.

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah. And I, you know, I always felt that way, too. It's kind of not, I don't want to, I'm not gonna walk around and, you know, throw titles out. I mean, if someone asked me, like, yeah, I am, you know, but it was really, you know, especially if I was in a common reading or something like that, like I wanted to learn. I was there to learn and in network and connect with colleagues. And simply because I'm the vice president of Nakata does not mean that we're not colleagues, right? We're, I want to learn from you. And so, yeah.

Matt Markin  
That's a great mentality for the both of you to have. And, I mean, I think that's also helped with probably other NACADA members being wanting to get more involved in that sort of thing. But I wanted to kind of transition to the fact that you are now at NACADA, but as now as the Associate Director for NACADA consulting, yeah. So fancy title. This is the first role of its kind at NACADA?

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, I think so, yeah, I don't again, another new another new position.

Matt Markin  
Your trend, trend setter, wherever you go.

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, there we go. Yeah, yes, yeah. So it's a, it's a newly, a new position, and it's been an incredible journey so far, lots of learning, and the folks at the executive office are so great, and I've got a great team around me, and folks have been doing this for a long time, and being so willing to share and teach and help me, and as I'm learning this stuff has been really great.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and I know since July is when he started, so, you know, a few months. But for you, how would you describe your role as Associate Director of nacotta Consulting? What does that all entail?

Nathan Vickers  
The majority of it is sort of a kind of a larger kind of management of the NACADA services, and being a a primary contact and a primary sort of person to devote their time and their bandwidth to NACADA consulting. It was always there. It's always been around. It's been around for a long time. But having someone to really think about growth and about how can we you know, those questions of what's working what, what could we improve on? How could we grow? How can we expand this? You know that that kind of stuff is really what, what the role is, plus doing consulting as well, right? So going on, on, on the program reviews and and answering questions about the self study and the different services that we have, and, you know, all of those kinds of things. So it's, it's been, it's been a really cool opportunity to take services and parts of the NACADA kind of ecosystem, like a better way of putting it, and really digging in, right? And to learn all the all the nooks and crannies and of it, and talk about ways, and think about ways that we can grow this and strategically, instead of just we're going to do this now, right? Sort of not that that was what was happening. But you know what I mean? Like sitting there and really talking to the team of folks who are working on this, and really thinking and brainstorming on ways to grow and improve and assess and things like that.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and what would be some, some examples of some of the services that that NACADA offers for that?

Nathan Vickers  
Well, there are several that that we have. And you know, we starting at being able to do some, you know, keynote speeches and things like that. So if someone's having a conference and they wanted to someone to come in and talk about a particular topic, we can have a facilitator or a speaker come in and do a keynote speech. Also professional development workshops, which are really great too, that can be kind of tailored to what you're wanting. If you needed someone to come in and do one on writing a mission statement or benchmarking an assessment plan, you know those kinds of things, having a facilitator to come in and do those workshops on your campus. They could be in person, or they can be virtual, kind of depending on what whatever is easier. And then program reviews, where consultants will go to their institution, go to an institution, meet with the folks on that institution campus, and then from that write a an in depth report about their their findings, right? This is what's working well. Here are some recommendations. Here are some challenges to meet. Some sorry, some challenges. Here's some recommendations to meet those challenges, talking about systemic change and timelines, and, you know, that kind of stuff. But it all comes from sitting down and talking to members of that that advising community and the campus community, and kind of learning that way and putting that in the report. And the reports are based on the nine conditions of excellence that we have, and then the kind of largest one that we have is a excellence in academic advising self study program. And that's a really a big deep dive on a campus about academic advising, and it's getting an entire campus talking about academic advising and and really examining it and it in using all these different data streams. So we have two surveys that that Nakata has, one that goes to faculty and staff and one that goes to students. And that's another service that folks can do if they wanted to gather some evidence. And it's like that, but just kind of gathering this into the information and evidence on your campus and starting examining it. Where are the gaps? Right? How, what are our what are we doing? Well, what do we need to work on, right? Those kinds of things. So it's a good opportunity for institutions to really sit down and take a deep, inward look at academic advising on their campus.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, yeah. And that excellence in academic advising, the EA one, like that one, because it's a self study, it's evidence based, like that one takes a little bit time, but there's work that, like individuals at the institution kind of have to get buy in and help from other parts, other individuals, to make sure that you're getting, I guess, all the information you need for that study.

Nathan Vickers  
It's a it's it, it definitely takes some time, and it's an opportunity to, you know, not, not to really rush through things too, which is good, but you could sit down and really take the time to examine the evidence and, and that's the thing, is, it is evidence based, right? And, you know, wanting to create some space in there where the campus can look at the evidence that's been gathered. And that's that's really helpful. And as we're you're creating these kind of committees to review these different conditions and these different indicators and key performance indicators, we always remind institutions like pull in folks from other parts of your campus pull in. You know, financial aid and the enrollment management folks and the admissions folks and like, have this conversation, because you all work together. Advising is never done in a vacuum, right? Nothing at an institution of higher education is done in a vacuum, right? So we all work together and things that we do affect each other. So let's all come together and talk about this. And so that's what's been great again, and just let's all look at the evidence. Let's look at the data that we're collecting, and talk about it.

Matt Markin  
Now I'm not sure if this connects, but maybe it does, I'll ask you. So a topic that's come up over the years has been the professionalization of advising. With something like EA, like the self study and work with institutions. Do you think that could help with connecting with the professionalization?

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah. I mean, I think what it could do is it really gathers the the evidence to show what is happening on that campus, and potentially bring to light parts of what's happening in academic advising that other parts of that campus may or may not even know is happening, right? And I can only imagine there are conversations I have like I had no idea the advisors even did that, or I had no idea the advisors even needed that, you know, those kinds of conversations, and you know that, just to show you've got, you know, anything that's evidence based is, is is good, right? And being able to show it's not a Well, I think it's a look. Here's the evidence to show this is what we're doing. This is what's working well. But we need help. Yeah, and this is where we need help, and why we need it, you know, and that kind of stuff, so that decision makers can see that the proof in the pudding, if you will, to potentially make some change or expand a staff or something like that. 

Matt Markin  
I guess in your role, like, let's say, let's just say, EA, for example, let's say someone goes an institution that goes through this. They have their findings. They go through the whole process. I guess, a question that might come up from someone might be like, Well, now that that's done, how do you know? How do we ensure that this report doesn't just collect dust, that things hopefully are implemented or used like, any, anything that you help with that, like, afterwards?

Nathan Vickers  
So part of the of the process is that that's kind of, it's kind of woven in, right as you're talking about these recommendations and and and evidence that's coming up, and how to overcome, potentially, a challenge that may come up, or, you know, opportunity for growth and all that stuff. But then we can come in and do this is where I think the workshops are really helpful. So if you've got recommendations that come out of a self study or or program review, even this is what we need to do this, and we need to create these, and we need, but I don't know if we know how to do that, having NACADA come in and help with that, right, having facilitators who have expertise in the area of benchmarking or mission statements, or what, creating a trading and development program, or whatever that is, and coming in. So okay, well, then let's, we'll, we'll come out and do a workshop, and it can be a one day, two day, whatever is clever. And let's, let's do that right, and we can help you get that process started so that it isn't just a report that's in someone's inbox, right? It's, it's, there's some actionable stuff in there, and making sure that that change happens right, and affecting change on a campus?

Matt Markin  
Well, speaking of change, question I want to ask you is, was it a hard decision to make that change, going from spending 20 years at your previous institution to making the jump and working for the Executive Office for NACADA in this role?

Nathan Vickers  
Yes and no, and I say yes and no, because yes in the sense that I had grown so close to some colleagues that I've been working with for 20 years, and so moving away from that kind of relationship with them, of course, was, was, was not an easy choice. You know, that was, that was definitely in there. And there's always that fear of the unknown. And as much as I like to grow and as much as I like to try new things, I am very much a kind of person who has a little bit of stress and fear for the unknown, right? That like, oh my gosh, what if? What if? What if? What if? You know, I kind of, what if myself to death sometimes. And it was, it was a little scary at first. I'm not gonna lie, to think about leaving an institution that I knew every brick of that campus. I mean, I went to school there, I worked there, I had done so much on that campus, but I think what made that transition easier was I was moving to a position at NACADA. I also knew Nakata really well, and I knew what NACADA stood for, and I knew what Nakata was, and the kind of environment that is here, and so that helps that kind of the fear of the unknown. It make it, make it less fearful, because I knew that I wasn't going to some like random thing I was I was going to a place that I knew was going to encourage and foster the same kind of growth and the same kind of of support, and the same kind of all of those things that I I had at UT Austin, and then just the opportunity to do work like this. And you know, advising students is many of us do it. I gotta say, all of us do it for one reason, right? And it's not the paycheck, it's great, but it's students, right? And wanting to help students, and that's really why we get up every morning, we'd go sit at our desks and see student after student after student, right? Because we love it, and we love working with them. And while I was sort of thinking about, Wow, I'm not going to really get to do that anymore. Our Associate Dean, I was talking to the associate dean at the time, and she said, you know, you're not going to do that anymore, but what you are going to do is you're still serving students. And I was like, you know, that's true. I'm going to now get the opportunity to go work with institutions, and if we can help an institution improve advising and improve retention of advisors, and improve the experience of an advisor on that campus, so that they then turn around and the student experience is better, and we're helping students. Still like I still have that connection to students. They're a little bit further away now, but I know that the work that we're doing is still all about them, all about their learning, all about their success, all about their ability to achieve their goals, and us to help them and cheer them on along the way. I'm not doing that at a desk anymore, right? But knowing that if we could go in and help an advising office or advising on a campus improve or affect some real change, or something like that, that's going to ultimately improve academic advising via academic advising experience for students, and that's, once again, what it's all about.

Matt Markin  
But I gotta think though, like, even though, knowing that, how was the first couple months in this position, like, was it a huge change in that mindset of, like, I was working at an institution that was student focused, now working at it within an organization that is helping the advising professional that is helping the student?

Nathan Vickers  
Yeah, it was a little Yeah, and, you know, and thinking about, okay, having to shift the focus to the profession of advising, and that's another thing of being able to really affect the profession of advising, right? That was a little bit strange, because it was almost like you're unlearning one thing and learning another thing at the same time. And I was fortunate that had a lot of really great support at NACADA. And some folks had known for a really long time there, too. So who had understood, and some of them had gone through a similar situation where they had worked at an institution, and now they're here, you know? And so it was really great to to to lean on that and kind of learn from them. When I was the assistant director, I wasn't seeing students as much anyway, so that I already, kind of like, you know, not I wasn't seeing students every day, right? So I had already started kind of thinking about the not really seeing students every day. I was still seeing some but not every day. So it was a little bit easier, and I think just sort of understanding that, that what the associate dean told me that day was really impactful, thinking about, well, now I'm you're still serving students and and that's where I think I started really focusing on, is that, if we, you know, affecting the profession, affecting academic advising on a campus, all of that still ultimately helps students, and so I still feel like I'm doing it. I just did a different desk, and it's a different kind of conversation now.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, 100% and, you know, and we're speaking about NACADA. So just a few weeks ago was the annual conference in Pittsburgh. So what was your experience like being had not attending as a NACADA member, but as part of the executive office, just being in Pittsburgh, yet at the NACADA conference?

Nathan Vickers  
It was, it was eye opening. I, you know, I learned a lot, and it was a lot of fun. I know it sounds interesting to think about like putting on such a big conference, and I had no idea all the moving parts. Like, you know, there are moving parts when you get when you're in leadership, you kind of have a little bit better understanding, at some points anyway, about, kind of like, oh yeah, there's all this stuff going on and, you know, but just being part of that team and recognizing how dedicated everybody in the executive office was to pulling the conference coming to get like, pulling together and making the conference great, making the attendance or the experience of the attendees good and positive. And you know, for some folks who are brand new, potentially to NACADA, introducing them to NACADA, and all of that. And so it was, it was a lot of fun, and having the opportunity to be at an in the exhibit area as a having a table for the NACADA consulting exhibit booth for the first time. That was the first time we'd done that, and it was really interesting. So I got to have some really great conversations with folks who came up would come up and either, oh, I knew that you had these consulting services, but I had no idea you had all of these. I knew they existed in the kind of ether sense, but I had no idea. Or the NACADA has consulting, like, yeah, we do, right? And being able to sort of introduce that to people was really cool. It's like, it's not just the conference. You're not just things to absolutely right, and introducing them, especially if there was someone was was relatively new, or something like that, and introducing them to the other parts of the conference, and making those connections. I got a stack of business cards, and that was really exciting. And just making those connections with people, it was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. 

Matt Markin  
As far as I could tell you were pretty busy anytime I walked in there, whether it was grab something to eat or it was looking at the art exhibition or going to the tables, there was always someone that was chatting with you, an attendee, about consulting services. So So I hope everything continues to go well in your role. I know it's new, but you're used to kind of go into these new roles and kind of building it, and I'm sure you could do a fantastic job in it, but I had a great, great time chatting with you. Nathan. Thanks for being on the podcast today.

Nathan Vickers  
Well, thank you, Matt. I really appreciate this. And yeah, thank you so much. It was great seeing you.

Matt Markin  
Let's welcome back. Guest host Dr. Melinda Anderson, from Achieving the Dream. Melinda, hello there.

Melinda Anderson  
Hi, Matt. How are you? So good to see you again in this space. We just came back from the NACADA conference in Pittsburgh, PA, so it's good to see you again.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, good to see you too. And I know when we were in Pittsburgh, we were going to record some interview there, but then you always have such great ideas, and you're like, how about we don't and we interview someone special. You're special. And I was like, Well, who else are we going to interview? So who is the person who said, Hey, we need to interview this person to have them on the podcast?

Melinda Anderson  
Well, you know, we were there, and I thought, you know, how about Zoranna Jones? Yes, I thought it would be great for us to have an opportunity to interview Zoranna. She was coming out of her presidency of the board, but she's still serving on the board. And so I think that that's a unique experience to have to come out of such a role, and then to still be serving on the board. And there's so many things that are happening right now in higher ed. And Matt, you were like, that would be brilliant for us to have an opportunity to engage in a discussion. 

Matt Markin  
Absolutely so. Zoranna Jones, Dr. Zoranna Jones, welcome to the podcast.

Zoranna Jones  
Welcome having me.

Matt Markin  
Yeah and so, yeah, good morning, good afternoon. Yeah. Let me go ahead and read your bio so that we listeners can get a better idea of our guest today. So Dr. Zoranna Jones started her nursing career at Harris Methodist Hospital, but soon found herself transitioning into higher education when she had the opportunity to return to her alma mater, Texas Christian University, working in the Harris College of Nursing and Health Sciences. And during this time, she earned her master's degree in communication and human relations at TCU, and she later received her PhD in public and urban administration from the University of Texas at Arlington. She has been working in higher education for over 22 years, with the last 18 years being in administration, and Dr. Jones is currently the Assistant Dean of the College of Science and Engineering at TCU, her passion truly lies with mentoring and helping students meeting their academic and personal goals. Dr. Jones is also the recipient of the university mentoring award recognizing her mentoring efforts. And as the founder and director of the TCU Stem Scholar Program, she has created an academic enrichment, full scholarship program for the best and brightest underrepresented students pursuing a degree in science, technology, engineering and mathematics. And because of her effort, she received the Michael R. Ferrari Award for distinguished university service and leadership. And her love for students is not only in the university setting, but also in K through 12. She has mentored her little sister from the Big Brother Big Sister program for over eight years, and she has also volunteered with leader kids in Fort Worth, providing leadership opportunities for middle school children. And most recently, she received the TCU Game Changer award for her cumulative impact at TCU. And Dr Jones and her husband Kevin Jones, are the proud parents of MIA Williams, who is a recent graduate of Tulane University, and Caden Jones, her charming eighth grader. Her family is her inspiration and her greatest joy, and when life brings challenges, she often turns to the Serenity Prayer to find center and guidance. Welcome again to the podcast.

Melinda Anderson  
I'm sure you started when you were 12. You know, yes, well, you know, thank you so much for just, you know, agreeing to be able to sit with us and and to talk a bit. And you know, when we think about kind of you know your you know your journey through higher education yourself, and how did you become connected back into the profession of academic advising.

Zoranna Jones  
So my intro into advising was very unconventional. So I was actually working in the hospitals, registered nurse working, and I had one of my previous mentors give me a call and said, we have this, this position at TCU. We think you'd be great for the position. It was a coordinator of recruitment, retention and Alumni Relations. So I was like, you know, what is this all about? I applied. Funny story. I applied. Initially, got to the interview round was not selected. I was like, Well, I guess that wasn't, wasn't for me. But six months later, the position opened up again. There was a new person who was actually running that and so they had heard about me. And long story short, I started to work at TCU. What was beautiful about that position was I was recruiting into nursing, but part of that recruitment was then the advising piece, like now that you're wanting to go into this this degree plan or this career, what are we doing with that? So lots of different opportunities to work with students from the recruiting aspect and then helping them to be successful. And then even with the Alumni Relations, the transition to become alumni. So I had multiple touch points with those students, and so that was my introduction. And part of the reason I wanted to come back to my alma mater was during the time I was at TCU, I had a pretty good experience. So I had lots of mentors, a lot of people pouring into me, but I had quite a few of my friends that didn't have the same experience. And so when I was able to come back to TCU, I wanted to make sure that the students had more of an experience like what I had were people who were, you know, seeing me and wanting to support me and encouraging me to, you know, step out of my comfort zone, like one of my faculty had encouraged me to go study abroad. I was like, what is that? You know, being a first gen student. I was just kind of out there doing all the things and but had some great folks mentoring me, but I wanted to make sure that in coming back to TCU, I was able to provide that support, those resources, encouragement to the students as well, so they had a similar experience to myself.

Melinda Anderson  
Yeah, no, that's wonderful. Because, you know, oftentimes Matt and I, when we hear the, you know, the Adventures in Advising, and what kind of draws people to this work, you know, so just hearing your story that that's very beautiful, and wanting to give people the experience that you had and and when you think about the need that students have today in the work that you're seeing, is that similar, or is that different? Has that evolved in what you're seeing now? Yes, yes, yes.

Zoranna Jones  
So, you know, we've got students who are in different stages, right? We've got some of those who are first gen and so those needs are just very different. I have done anything from helping students to figure out how to do their taxes to helping them, you know, purchase clothes, to encouraging them to interview or join clubs and organizations. Then we have those who have parents who are have gone to college and kind of have an idea and are guiding them, but having to help them navigate that college looks a little different than when mom and dad went through and and here are some resources. And you don't necessarily have to do everything on your own, or there are people who are in your corner as well. The challenges there, you know, there, there are a lot of heavy challenges. I think for students, the cost of attendance is a big issue. Now, the competitiveness of any of the programs. So you have a student who, you know, 10 years ago, they would have easily gotten into a program, but now the the standards and criteria raising so it's it's even more competitive. So it's taken longer, sometimes for students to get through. Students to get through. And then just with the world itself, mental health, you know, is one of those things that is now talked about, now seen, but still, for some communities, it's still a stigma. And so trying to encourage the students to actually, you know, it's okay to utilize these resources, which are feeling other students have felt the same, you know, for for many years. This isn't a new thing. It's okay to ask for help. So those are probably more of the conversations I'm having is, you know, specifically around asking for help, both in academics, but also for you as a person, so that you can, you know, successfully move through this. 

Matt Markin  
I'm going to kind of jump to another question, because I think this really kind of segues right into is, you know, you're talking about a lot of the changes that are happening in higher ed, a lot of the pressing issues that students are facing, and then also, kind of how that connects to like you as an administrator, and trying to figure all that out. And along with administrators, is also the advising professionals, the frontline, primary role advisors, let's say, and you know, as you kind of see, and I know you don't have a crystal ball, so you can't see, like, well, what will happen, but in your opinion, how should advisors and administrators kind of be preparing themselves in this field of higher Ed, especially within Academic Advising and working with students, essentially, as advising continues to evolve, and, you know, we have this student success, quote, unquote, what do we got to do? How are advisors and you as an administrator and other administrators supposed to have, you know, kind of still prepare themselves with these changes?

Zoranna Jones  
We have to continue to educate ourselves on the profession as a whole, on our students, on the challenges that challenges that are occurring. Also the different resources that are available for students, right? You know, we're hearing a lot about student success, but identifying what is that exactly, and how are we connecting those students so that they can be successful. I think the biggest thing for our advisors and I, I am a learner, right? So I'm one of those people. I want to do the best job that I can. And so in order for me to do that, I want to have lots of information. I want the current information. I want to be, you know, if that students asking me a question, I want to be able to give them a good answer. A real answer, a current answer. And so in order to do that, we've got to be familiar. We have to familiarize ourselves with, you know, the catalog, but familiarize ourselves with what our students stressors are. We have to familiarize ourselves with the students themselves. And then, where is the profession going, right? How do we fit into this whole higher ed bubble that we're in this beautiful higher ed bubble. But how does advising fit into that? And we also then, once we educate ourselves, we have to educate others. So as an administrator, when I have conversations with the provost or our deans, I am now trying to make those connections for them in terms of how this helps with retention, how this helps with our attrition and graduation rates. That it's not advising of old where you just kind of came in and someone signed off on a piece of paper. That is way more complex than that. When I'm sitting down with my first year students, we're already talking about what is their academic plan over four years, and that may not necessarily be like, how many hours are you studying, but what do you hope to gain in this four years that you're here? Because if a student wants to go study abroad, right, there may be some decisions that they have to make early on in order to make that happen, or if they are, for instance, I'm in STEM we have a lot of students who are pursuing computer science or engineering. Internships are hugely important. So in addition to these are the courses you want to take, it's here's some certifications you may need to to acquire as well, so that you can apply and be eligible for different internships, so that you can then successfully go into industry with this degree, right? So it's to me, just kind of educating ourselves on what's available, how the profession is moving, and then our students as well, and then educating others so that we can all kind of come together and support the student holding.

Melinda Anderson  
I think that that's a wonderful reflection on, for example, your point about complexity. You know, the idea of just signing off on a piece of paper, this is what you're taking now, the idea of hours. I think that the landscape that especially our profession has been talking about for years is that it is complex, but then also relating it to what senior level administrators, right, what boards of trustees are worried about, right, how is this connecting to workforce needs?  Which, when I remember being a young professional would be like, Oh, it's not about the marketplace. It's about their hopes and dreams, you know. And but you know, the reality is, is that, you know, you do need an educated workforce. You know the conversations around AI, what does that mean, right, in terms of how things will be evolving, and so we do need to be concerned with how people are having those conversations in relationship to the work that we're doing. So and when I think about, for example, your we mentioned earlier, right you coming out of your president role on the board, you spoke to a lot of the accomplishments that the board was able to achieve over the year. And so we were just wondering if you could share some of those accomplishments again with us and maybe talk about how they are in relationship to how you're seeing the field move forward, right? So how has NACADA been trying to work to prepare the feet, you know, advisors within our community in NACADA to what's also transpiring in the field?

Zoranna Jones  
So I'll kind of take that in two parts, so any of the accomplishments that we had, so I would like to say we were a very productive board this year. One of the things when I started, I said, you know, I've been on the board for a couple years now, and we've done some good things. We've identified the issues, but now I want to go into the problem solving mode. We actually want to come out and be able to fix some of these things, or at least address some of these things. And so several things that we did, for instance, we looked at what is NACADA global scope, right? So we're the global community for academic advising, but what does that mean? And when we looked at our strategic initiatives, we had several things that spoke to it. But when you try to look at the outcomes like they weren't measurable. It wasn't real clear on how we were accomplishing that, and so we had some real honest conversations about, what does that mean to be globally or to be global? And with that, we made some adjustments to some of our strategic initiatives, so never losing that sight of it. But when we realized that some of our initiatives weren't bringing as many of our our global partners in as we wanted to, it was like, okay, so how are we addressing that? Does that mean we're successful? Are we not successful? And so some of the conversations we're having around those global conferences and actually collaborating and partnering with other organizations so that it's not just us going out and saying, we're going to educate you on how we do it here in the US system, but if we're collaborating with other organizations out there, it can be something that's mutually beneficial or and we're also not just like looking at what are you doing, you know, again, the more the collaborative piece in that. So we spent a lot of time talking about that. We also looked at our advising community. So one point, I think we had over 40 advising communities, and realizing and wanting to serve our advisors, we were kind of stretching ourselves then in terms of how we could actually have great programming and be able to address all the needs. And so we tasked that advising community to actually kind of do a little restructure and look at, you know, what is the best way to serve our members. And so they went in and actually reduced that 40 plus, I think around 60. Don't quote me on that one, but looking at, you know, which ones, which themes, made sense, right? Instead of just identifying everything liberal arts, you know, stem coaching, we looked for things so that one as advisors, we can not feel like we're having to choose 10 different interests, but we can actually commit to several things that we're interested in, and be more likely to commit to that and be more involved with that. Because I don't know about you all, but you give me too many choices, then I'm like, Oh no, what's the best one? And I'm spending more time, you know, trying to figure out what I need to do instead of actually partaking in the thing, right? So that was one of the things that we did. We also, this was based on the Boston report. So Boston had come in and done a survey for our users, right? And to get a an idea of what, what is, what do people love about NACADA? What are some things that we could have done differently? And so from that, there were some recommendations. And so a couple things that we did came out of those recommendations, and one of them was convening a nominating committee so we could have a little bit more transparency in how we're choosing our leaders, but also making it a bit more inclusive. And that was one that was hugely important for me, because, you know, my transition into NACADA, as well as in the board of directors, and then eventually becoming president, was very different from many of my colleagues. And I think I'm a persistent person. You know, I may not be the brightest personality in the room, but I work hard, and so I just kept, kept moving forward. I'm like, Okay, this, this may not work out, but I'm going to keep pushing. I'm keep pushing because the work was so important to me and so but with this nominating committee, maybe we could identify more folks that are wanting to do this work, but may not necessarily put themselves out in front or as confident enough to nominate themselves for certain things, so we put that in place. And then another hugely important thing is we created a task force. They haven't actually started yet, but they're going to start very soon. Actually, they did start. They did we have this task force that's going to help us to create a definition for academic advising, and this is, to me, like one of the most important things that we can do, because so many other groups have been defining us, but here's an opportunity for us to define ourselves and then put this out there as this is the definition. This is what academic advising is. It's not what you think it is from 20 years ago or 30 years ago, but this is what we're moving and our goal is for it to be not just what we're doing now, but aspirational, right? So what are we going to do and move in the forward? How are we moving this into a profession? Because we're calling ourselves a profession, but there's a few things that we're missing that's giving us that actual definition of we are professionals, right? And so I by defining ourselves, we can definitely move forward with that. And so those are just a few of the many things that we did in this past year, and I think those are largely important in terms of how we're serving our members, but also how we are shaping advising as a profession. So that's huge. There was a second part of your question. I know it. I forgot it.

Melinda Anderson  
Well, well, no, I think you've been answering it along the way, you know, in terms of your accomplishments for the board. It was, you know, how is this moving the association to be able to address changes in the field? And so, number one, definitely defining us in terms of what advising, academic advising specifically means, and not letting how others have been defining what academic advising mean is huge. How to determine who's leading the profession, in terms of having a nomination committee, in terms of addressing how we are showing up in terms of research, research and practices for the field, definitely and then globally, right? How are we looking at best practices. I'm sorry, promising practices is the word that I use now, and not best right? Because it depends on your conditions that exist. And so talking about how you're doing that work globally, and being more honest about what globally means and how it shows up so and that definitely speaks to how the field of higher education is moving. So, no, that was the second part of the question. So you did that beautifully. So thank you so much. 

Matt Markin  
I think it's good for listeners to know too that like being NACADA President is a one year term, so you're all these accomplishments that have happened in the last year. I'm like, kudos. Like, totally amazing. And I feel like ever since I started advising, I mean, granted, some people been advising for way number of years. You know, I started in 2013 and that conversation about the professionalization of advising has just been ongoing. And so now, hey, we have a task force that has started, and let's get this definition finally. So happy to hear that, but I'm interested to know, and I was, I was sharing with Melinda, when we were in Pittsburgh, that I was like, you know, Zoranna came to our ELP orientation and then spoke about what made her decide to apply, or, you know, run for board and also for president. And Melinda was like, You have got to ask her that on the podcast. So I was wondering if you could share that with listeners about kind of your decision making process to say, You know what, I want to run for board, and then ultimately, when I'm on board to run for president?

Zoranna Jones  
absolutely. So I actually started with NACADA back in 2003 so soon after I started that job as the coordinator, part of my professional development was going to NACADA, and back then it was obviously the National Academic Advising Association, but my supervisor was like, Hey, this is this thing. You're going to be advising students, so you need to know more about that. And so went to the first meeting, I think it was in Dallas, as a matter of fact, came in and was just floored, right? Floored in a good way to say, Okay, one, there's all these people here, right? There's 1000s of people here, and then we're all doing a similar job, but there's so many facets to it, right? So I came in and just learned as much as I could. Met so many different people. And at that time there was a health professions advising interest group, and so I joined that immediately. And there was a lovely woman, Beverly Childress, that was from Auburn, and she had made the call of, who wants to get on the steering committee. And I was like me, absolutely me. And at that time, I was able to go to conferences every other year. And so whenever I was there, she was very gracious, and we would have a little lunch, but we would, you know, prepare for the Fairs and things of that sort. So that was kind of my first taste of leadership. Then when she steps down, she asked if I was interested. And, you know, at that point, I was so honored, like, oh my gosh, so took on that role. And back then with the interest groups, you didn't necessarily have to do all the required reports and things as a commission, but it was important. Like, I wanted us to make sure that we were doing you know, at least that, so that again, we can better serve our advisors, and ultimately a better better serve our students. And I think I did an okay job, because then they asked me to be on the steering committee for just those interest groups, and I was on one of the task force that helped combine those, and then the leadership just kept going. So I had different leadership roles. So I was on the awards committee and different task force and things of that sort. And what was beautiful you know, when you go to the conferences, you meet lots of people, and these folks become colleagues and friends and and so I had a lot of encouragement along the way. Specifically, Megumi was one of the people who was truly encouraging. And she said, You know, I can see your passion for this work. You're, you know, you're really good leader. You're really, you know, doing a good job. She said, I could see you as a president one day. And I just, like, laughed. I was like, Oh, you're so kind, you're so nice, you're so lovely. But I was like, I just don't think that that that's my journey initially, but she she kept on and and as I kept getting more and more involved, I realized too that there were some things that I wanted to change, right? So I'm like, we're doing this, but if we could just, you know, tweak it or do something a little bit different. And when we would have town halls and things of that, that sort I would show up and I would have my criticisms about, why weren't we doing things a little bit different? And I've always been one of those people where, instead of just sitting in the background complaining to my friends or going to a town hall and bussing, I was like, I want to be a part of the solution, right? And so I realized one of the ways to do that is to ultimately get on the board, the board set sets such as the strategic initiatives and and the goals in terms of, what are we doing with funding? How are we spending those funds? And so I ran for the board. Didn't make it the first time, but I did end up on the board when someone else took on a different role. So I finished out a term. Wasn't eligible to run for president or VP at that time, so I had to run again. So I finished out one term, ran for the board again, and was surprised that I got it, because I didn't get it the first time. So I was like, my chances are so good, but was able to run again, and then I decided I wanted to do the presidency role, because I could see the impact that she could really make in that role. Like definitely all the board members come together. There's lots of work, lots of conversations, but even some of the things of creating Task Force, or setting the agenda, or the initiatives. Think the President does have the power to do that. And so some of these things that we've been talking about for years, I'm like, I want us to get that done. And so ran for that. Was surprised again when I won that, but this past year has been fantastic. You know, we've got a lot of really good people who are doing this work, but I just felt like I wanted to move us a little further. I wanted the profession to move further. I wanted Nakata to move further. But it was always about, how can we do our best work? Because to me, it always goes back to the students. I know people have other ideas, but I'm always thinking about what is the best way to serve my students. And so I feel like NACADA is the train the trainer part, right? So if we can train those who are advising, and then those advisors can go out and impact our students, and we are transforming lives on so many different levels. And so that's kind of how I see things.

Matt Markin  
I'm sure that year as President flew by. 

Zoranna Jones  
It did. At first it was like, super slow, super slow. And then, I don't know, February hit, and then shoot. And then I was counting the days, like, oh my gosh.

Melinda Anderson  
Now, I mean, it was funny, you know, I walked in the store and it's like, you it was Halloween, and then now it's Christmas. So no, I mean, yes, time does definitely move by and so, so no, thank you, though, for sharing how, and we've heard it a couple times. This, this theme of persistence, you know, in your story, you know, like trying for something, and just because you don't get it immediately doesn't necessarily mean that that's not in your your your path. And so I do want to lift that up for those who are listening to your story, that just because something doesn't happen immediately doesn't mean that that's not where you're supposed to be. And so when we think about, you know, NACADA will be 50 next year, have you gotten that? Yes. Matt and I were in Pittsburgh, and we were like, do you know next year is going to be a big year, the big five? Oh, you know. And what I love about our Nakata folks is that, you know, people often like that. Well, when did you join NACADA? When did you join NACADA? But what I love the most is when you think about the longevity of this organization, right? 50 years is a big deal. And so as the kind of turns 50 next year, what do you think its impact has been on its longevity in the field of higher ed I love your point about when you came to that first conference, you were like, look at all these people that do what I do. And so given its longevity, what are your hopes in terms of how it can continue to impact academic advising, in terms of how it's researched and practiced in the future to support student success?

Zoranna Jones  
That's a big one.

Melinda Anderson  
Well, you know, Matt, and I don't pull any punches.

Zoranna Jones  
No, not at all. Thank you. Thank you for the question you mentioned the research piece. Absolutely right. There is a fertile ground for research in terms of what we're doing, the types of students we're working with, the challenges that are being presented, how we're supporting advisors, you know, what? What are the standards, right? You mentioned that best practices, but what? What can we lay out there so we know what we should be accomplishing, right? Like setting the the expectations that advisors in this in this profession should be doing, x, y, z, right, and backing that up with the research, and backing that up with data. And this is, you know, how you can excel in certain environments and then in situations. So definitely promoting that research element of that also, just again, as I mentioned before, educating others on who we are and what we do right, not allowing those to define us, but educating others on that, finding ways to support our advisors. I think in some ways, institutions think this is an entry level position, and for some it is an entry level position. But we see in other institutions that advisors can be tenured, or, you know, can have more senior roles, or there's, you know, ladders for in order for them to be able to to move up in the profession. But, you know, supporting advisors and helping them to understand how impactful their work is, because I, you know what? I used to run an advising center. You kind of had those who were the lifers, right? That I love this work, and I'm going to continue to do this work, and you have those who definitely are using this as a stepping stone to do something else, which is, you know, everyone has their motivation, but whether they're there for a good time or a long time, right? We want to be able to support them and make sure that they are getting their needs and helping them as well. So I mentioned the mental health with our students, but also the mental health with our advisors. Right when we are helping students navigate all of these challenges, sometimes that's, you know, giving away a piece of ourselves. And how are we replenishing part of that? So I also want to be able to figure out, you know, how can we support them. When I was chair the advising administration, like we talked about motivating our advisors. How do you motivate them when salary, when we can't increase the salary? What are we doing to to motivate them, right? So looking at kind of the needs of our advisors, and how we can kind of step in and support them, if not financially, and hopefully financially, maybe, you know, that's another piece that NACADA can can get in there and talk about advising loads and salaries. And you know, what is this should look at, look like, kind of on a global level, in terms of compensation, right compensation for the type of work that we're doing. I mean, there's so many different things. So how do you support them? How are we compensating them or motivating them. How are we educating others on what advising is, what the profession is, and being aspirational in terms of, like, what all other things that we can do? So it's just not about the courses. I know I mentioned before. When you have that student in the room, that whole you're looking at that whole human, and what are the needs of that entire human now, we're not necessarily therapists and coming in and doing all these things, but being able to identify when there's something else, right. I've always been very sometimes intuitive with my students, where they'll come in and ask a question about financial aid, and you dig a little deeper and you realize, okay, there's some, you know, some housing issues, and there's some, you know, food insecurity, and there's other things that are tied to that. They may have asked this one simple question, but then in that interaction, you realize there's so much more that's behind that, right? Or if they're asking, well, if I have to sit out a semester, you know, what does that mean for me coming back in, and you're like, okay, but let's talk about, why are you having to set up a semester, and what's that going to do, and how's that going to impact you, or, you know, having conversations sometimes, around how your success can ultimately impact your family, right? These are some we're changing lives. This is generational change. So lots of different things that we're thinking about, but some of that is then the training, like, I've got some folks who've come in and they're just answering the questions, right? One of the example makes me think about I had a wonderful advisor, wonderful advisor, very knowledgeable advisor, and they've gotten an email from a student that was explaining that they were having some serious personal issues, and at the end of the email, they then asked a question about classes, like just a general advising question, and my advisor answered the question, didn't acknowledge all the other things. And the parent of that student had called me to complain about how horrible this advisor was, and they weren't, you know, great. And so I, you know, listened and got the information, and when I went back and talked to that advisor, they couldn't understand what the problem was. And I said that was a human right. So even if you would have just acknowledged like, I'm so sorry these things are going on, and, you know, sending you positive vibes or whatever you want to say, and then answering the question, would have allowed that student to be seen, right? So I was like, You didn't do anything wrong, technically, but not acknowledging that that was a human sitting in front of you, a person that has a lot going on, you know, thoughts, feelings, and they were at that time, felt comfortable enough to share that with you, you know, less, at least acknowledge that, whether you could, you know, talk them through it or not, acknowledge that this is a human that is complex and has lots of things going on. So being able to also train and talk about those kind of things like, you're going to be presented with uncomfortable conversations, right? And what do we do in those situations? I feel like I'm rambling. I'm gonna stop on that.

Melinda Anderson  
Well, no, I mean, I think your point about, you know, when we think about the longevity in the field, how we're preparing for this profession, it's going to just continue to get complex, because we as a society, or as a people, as institutions, institutions are people. We're continuing to evolve, and we're going to only get complex. And so how are you preparing people to support a profession that are going to be helping others, that are going to continue to get complex, right? Society has continued to show us that our issues are going to continue to evolve. And earlier you spoke to you, have first generation and second generation students. We are seeing more adult learners, right? But we're still seeing now dual enrollment students enter this pipeline. And so whoever you're supporting, whoever walks through that door, you know, you're gonna have to take the time to evaluate, how do you show up for that person?

Matt Markin  
Everything you were saying, I was like, I agree. I agree. Oh yes, I can see how we can improve on that. I mean, especially the part when you're talking about a student might come in for, like, a simple question, right? But maybe there's something behind that, or they may not even know. But if you take, like, the one extra minute to ask a couple extra questions, maybe they didn't know about they had a hold, or that they could repeat a course, or then they find out there's certain resources. That they didn't know about. But one of the best questions my colleague had ever said that you can ask a student the very beginning is tell me how what life is going like in your world right now. And then that could ultimately spiral into a whole bunch of other paths and other questions you can ask, but they might come in saying, I have a question about financial aid and then, but they could walk out half an hour later knowing so much more.

Melinda Anderson  
Absolutely, that's a that's a great question. Matt, you know, we often design systems based on how institutions work, and we do not design them based on the student experience, you know. So how a student encounters us is not how we design at all. And so when we talk about student success, often, I always start with, well, who owns what, and then people can tell you who's responsible for what, who does what. But rarely do we put the student voice in the center of how we've designed, what happens on our institutions. So you know, the other fun thing that Matt and I talked about that we wanted to ask you zarana Dr Jones was about the 50th in terms of how we're going to be celebrating in Las Vegas. So before we jump there, though, what did you enjoy most about Pittsburgh? Because for those who might be listening that didn't get a chance to join this year, what are some things that you enjoy the most? And then what would you be looking forward to next year?

Zoranna Jones  
Pittsburgh was a great time. I had a wonderful time. Now. I was a little busy, but there was just excitement in the room that I really appreciated. There was a lot of conversations that were being had, lots of good sessions. We had some really good speakers that spoke to folks. People felt like, you know, these were, they were just some wonderful speakers that we had, those who had planned it. Kudos to them. I've been to many of these conferences, and this one just really felt encouraging. It felt and lifting, affirming. So I love that about about the conference, it was just a good time. It was a really good time. You had folks that were there to learn, to do the work, but also to network and to make those connections. And I appreciated that. And in the spaces that I was in, even with like ELP, folks are committed, folks are doing the work, folks are excited. And that makes me excited that there wasn't this disgruntledness That you know, that we've had a little bit in the past. If there was some, it didn't make it to me. But just from my observations, it seemed like people, we were all kind of going in the same direction and really wanted to learn and do more. That was great. As far as next year, obviously Las Vegas is a good time. It's a good time. I think we'll have some really high numbers of attendees. So we're trying to anticipate that. I think it's going to be in Caesar's Palace. So you know, if you want to start saving those coins, we haven't had any preliminary conversations. I'm sure our EOS probably have some ideas of how they want to celebrate. But you know, if it's up to me, we're going to do something big and grand and and flashy and glittery and all that good stuff to celebrate all that NACADA and our advisors are doing. So that's what I'm looking forward to.

Melinda Anderson  
Oh, wonderful. Well, shout out to Chris and Karen for an excellent conference in Pittsburgh, and you know, there's no I in team, so definitely, they were supported by a great committee. And you're absolutely right, it was great energy. And I'm looking forward to the 50th and Matt the chairs for the conference next year to you.

Matt Markin  
Yes, I'm happy to say that they are part of region nine. So we have Janelle, Maria and Kevin, all from UNLV. So nice. And Maria and Janelle were conference co chairs. And those conference you went to when we had our region eight, 910, tri system conference, I want to say 2023, spring of 23 so, yeah, I mean, great time. I don't know Farah was there and helping out at that tri system conference. And I know she was like, I think I can see some of them being annual conference chairs. And I was like, absolutely.

Melinda Anderson  
Oh, that's gonna be great. You know, it just hit me, Matt, in that moment, I was like, it was a two, and now we're throwing it at nine, so I know that you're going to be very excited about that. So definitely looking forward to what's to come. And just like again, you know, just keeping the energy high. You know, having advisors and having an opportunity to refresh themselves, connecting with each other, learning and and seeing what else is is happening, and learning what, what good research is out there. Matt, you know, you had an opportunity to do a research to, well, basically, you you were able to have people ask about your paper that you were presented on. And that was new for you, right?

Matt Markin  
It was, I was nervous because the structure so the scholarly paper session, I'm so used to. Like, you know, poster sessions, concurrent sessions and only paper session. It's like, you only have 15 minutes talk about your paper, and then now, okay, what do we include? Exclude? Ryan sScheckel, who is the lead author on that one, did a fantastic job. It was just, it was great learning experience, just with scholarly writing in general, but to go through that scholarly paper session, which is like, oh my god, this is so so new, it was a nerve wracking too, because then you see people in the audience, you're like, there's Jenny Bloom. Am I going to say something wrong, you know?

Melinda Anderson  
Right? No, yes, seeing, seeing Jenny Bloom and others like that, yes, and that's what I love about the conference, right? You know, you get to see people that you work with for over years, right? And and right leadership in NACADA, right? And then and Jenny blooms, right? So thank you again. So much Zoranna for your time and being able to share your experiences with our audience. I know that we'll continue to watch you work right because we know that the work of the Board is never done. We know that there's a lot of things before us as an advising community, as we look forward to number one defining who we are in this space, learning more from a research perspective about the work that's before us and what we need to do to be able to continue to support all students on our campuses. And so we're just excited about what's ahead as always, because we know why we do this work. We know why it's so important for all of us to roll up our sleeves and continue to support our students at our own institutions, and to be able to support our colleagues who are doing similar work across the globe, right because we are a global organization, and in terms of how we think about the work that we're doing.

Matt Markin  
And so I actually have a before we end. I do have a question for both of you is...

Melinda Anderson  
Surprises. 

Matt Markin  
I know surprise question. So I mean, you both are amazing. You both have done so much over the years, continuing to do so much. What do both of you do for your wellness? 

Melinda Anderson  
Matt knows how I feel about these wellness he's always encouraging me to lately, Matt, in terms of wellness, I've been really focusing on rest. I remember somebody telling me about breast is a form of protest. And I remember thinking to myself, like, that's crazy. But then I thought about it, and I was like, Yeah, I mean, you know, you should be going to bed early and not on your emails. Or you should take a nap if you have time to do so, you know. And so I have really just been trying to focus on sleep hygiene. I know that sounds boring, you know, I wish I could take off and do a spa day or get massages in Sweden or something. But lately, it's really just been trying to rest my body in my mind so but that's a great question. Thanks for asking that. Zoranna, what do you do for your wellness?

Zoranna Jones  
I'm gonna have to model some behaviors for you, Melinda. So I have a monthly membership for massages. I was so excited when I was in Pittsburgh, the chain was right down the street, and so I slipped in and got a massage while I was in Pittsburgh, because of, you know, all the work I had to do. So do that. I love my little nails. It's my little trying to get in there. So I will take the time to go and get my mani pedi and just relax. The lady I visit, she's very nice. She has my coffee ready, or, if it's an afternoon, she's got my little wine ready, and I can she'll encourage me to take a nap. So I do spend that time kind of to myself and making myself look pretty and feel good. I'm a part of a book club, and I don't always like the books, but I love the ladies I'm with, and we will spend hours just sort of laughing, debating, encouraging. So that's that's always a really nice time. And then I do like to brunch, so occasionally I will seek out certain ladies and we'll go have a good brunch on the weekend. So that's fun. And then lastly, I'm still active with my sorority. Very active with my soroity. 

Melinda Anderson  
You said lastly.

Zoranna Jones  
I adding all the things I'm trying to model things for you, ma'am, that means that four or five things?

Melinda Anderson  
Well, I knew we weren't going to end this podcast about you. No, your sorority, please.

Zoranna Jones  
But when we have our monthly meetings, I will then we'll go to lunch with some of my sorority sisters and what's beautiful about that is it's women of the same age, who are, you know, with children. You know, we just have some of the same things that we are navigating and managing in our lives, and so having those conversations. So I'm finding different ways. It's funny. I was presenting to some graduate students, and the similar question was asked, and I was like, Oh, I don't do that many things. And then I started listing things. I was like, Oh, well, I guess I am investing in self. No, that's good. I encourage you to do many of the same. 

Melinda Anderson  
I will write these down and show them to my family and encourage them to support me. But Matt, what do you do for wellness? This is a great question, but Matt, what do you do...

Matt Markin  
I want to add the massages now to my list for wellness. Like you. Melinda, trying to rest and get some extra sleep if I can, I started wanting to get back into reading, so I'm liking that book club, but what I try to do is, if I get to work a little bit early, I'll take, like, the first 15 minutes before I start work to just read, and if I can get through a chapter, awesome, but it kind of just gets me settled in. And I don't feel like as rush, like I need to just get everything done, but I feel like that's helped me mentally to start the day. But yeah, I mean, I feel like my stuff's very boring now, but yeah, I think the book club and the massages, I think I need to add that to my list now.

Zoranna Jones  
I used to feel like, Oh, we're spending time away from the family, but my family actually enjoys that, because I come back and in a better mood, better spirit, and ready to engage with them, because it's like, Oh, Mommy got to do her thing or, you know, but now I'm back and I'm totally engaged with with what's going on.

Matt Markin  
So I think this is a great way to end this interview. So Dr. Zoranna Jones, thank you so much for being on the podcast and joining Melinda 

Zoranna Jones  
I hope I did you all well.