Curving Passion with Realism - Adventures in Advising

In Ep. 94, Bri Harvie, associate director of academic advising at Southern Alberta Institute of Technology discusses how the Canadian higher education system differs from the U.S.,  how parenting has informed her practice in advising, changing the student mindset regarding grades, and accepting new challenges. Guest host Thomas Shelly from Oregon State University.

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hello and welcome back to the Adventures in Advising podcast. This is episode 94, on our way to Episode 100. This is Matt Markin, and on today's episode, we continue with bringing back a previous guest to come back on the pod, but this time as a guest host. So today's guest host is Thomas Shelly academic advisor at Oregon State University. Thomas was on episode 71 of the adventures and advising podcast titled thriving and connecting in advising. And during our tri region conference last year between regions eight, nine and 10 in Las Vegas, we got to know Thomas a lot better and we actually adopted him into our region nine. So Thomas, welcome back to the podcast.

Thomas Shelly  
Happy to be here. Happy to be wanted. Absolutely. And we're here today with a good friend of mine, great colleague all around wonderful human person. Brie Harvie, an accomplished professional in higher education has seemingly blended a background in music and sciences with a fervor for academic growth. Currently, as the Associate Director of Academic Advising at Southern Alberta Institute of Technology. Bri brings nearly 15 years of experience to guide students toward their educational and career goals with a foundation of music and sciences. Bri is currently pursuing a Masters of Arts and Interdisciplinary Studies showcasing a commitment to holistic learning. research interests span early support programs career development in post secondary education, and addressing impostor syndrome. Bri contributions to the field have not gone unnoticed. She was recently awarded the Alberta services for students conference team award in 2013. And the Linda Shantz Memorial Award for Outstanding Staff member in 2021. Bri's recognized for outstanding contributions in student services. In 2022. Bri completed the Emerging Leaders Program highlighting a dedication to continuous professional development, and is currently serving as the Mikado region eight chair breeds a key figure in shaping the landscape of academic advising regionally, nationally and globally. Breeze Gertie exemplifies a blending of diverse academic interests, professional achievements, and an unwavering commitment to fostering student success. So welcome, Bri.

Bri Harvie  
Thanks for having me. It's quite the intro. Absolutely.

Thomas Shelly  
Absolutely. I can't believe he made me read that.

Bri Harvie  
I can't believe I wrote that.

Thomas Shelly  
To start out today, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your adventures in academic advising. In particular, I want to know where it really started, what was your journey into higher education like?

Bri Harvie  
Yeah, it was kind of by accident, which I think is fairly common in our field. I don't think there's a lot of people that wake up in the morning and like, I want to be an academic advisor when I grow up. But I had just finished my sciences program. I was a, at a small liberal arts institution. And I had done some student volunteer work as a student ambassador and got an email about this recruitment job that was opening up and I had big plans, big, big plans to make it as a professional musician in a city with next to no professional music landscape. And so I was trying real hard to make it and then I saw this, this job come up, and I thought, You know what, maybe it's time to try something a little bit different. And I jumped into recruitment and immediately fell in love. I loved the recruiting, I was fairly young. So I didn't mind being on the road all the time. But I really liked getting to help students kind of find their, their path through life. So I recruited for a little bit and then moved into advising not long after that, and then fell even more luck with working in post secondary, and then eventually move to a bigger institution. And then I stayed there. I was at Mount Royal University for almost 10 years. Doing advising, doing early support, eventually moved into management and found that was kind of where my that was my jam. I really liked management I still do in advising and helping other young professionals move through their career. And so that was great. It was a really good step for me and then just a few months ago October I left Mount Royal and move to the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology, which we call sate into their Associate Director of Advising role and NACADA's  kind of sprinkled throughout. 

Thomas Shelly  
And here you are. Yeah, I also appreciate it in your intro, this kind of blend of Arts and Sciences, I think that has a lot to do with perhaps your your liberal educational experience in college as well. How do you kind of blend those into your like techniques for advising students?

Bri Harvie  
Yeah, I think for the most part, I use it as an example of not having any idea what you want to do with the rest of your life. I get a lot of students that come when they're 17. And I mean, I don't do a lot of face to face students stuff anymore. Back when I did they come at 17 and be like, This is it, I'm going to be whatever a lawyer, a pilot, a interior decorator, this is exactly what I'm gonna be. And I'm not allowed to change my mind. And I would tell them, great, let's do that. And then six months later, when they're like, No, I hate it, I want to change my mind. And I don't know what I want to do. I would use myself as a bit of a like, I hear you, I can empathize. I started in music, went to an art school and fell in love with sciences. And now I'm doing a master's in arts and like, it's okay, you're you'll figure it out, your life will sort itself out as long as you're willing to try new things. And so I use kind of the blend is a bit of a, you're not alone. Lots of people change their minds. And also just to really like kind of approach things from a holistic perspective and be like, it's not necessarily about what you want to do at the end. But what you enjoy right now, because what you enjoy right now will inform what you do at the end. And so when I was in music, I loved music. But in the end, it didn't make sense to me. And I moved back home and then ended up in sciences. And that made sense to me. And then that led me to this seemingly unrelated career that I've really grown into. So yeah, finding your passion in the minute and then just go with that the rest of it got a long life, it'll figure itself out. 

Thomas Shelly  
Figured out, you know, speaking of, you know, those kinds of transitions in in life being in that state now, can you describe what that transition has been like for you? And what advice do you have for people looking for work or, you know, looking at transitioning into different roles?

Bri Harvie  
Yeah, the transition was, I mean, it's been really, really great. The word I use the most is aggressive. And I mean it in a really positive way. But it was a really aggressive change. I had been at Royal for almost 10 years, I was comfortable, I knew all the people, I knew all the things, it was very, very easy to go to work, even if there were challenges, but I was ready for something different. And so we were looking or they were looking sage at the time was looking to completely revamp their academic advising bucket, it was kind of all over the place at the time. And part of that involves hiring an associate director. And so it was a brand new position. And I'd worked previously, with the leader that was overseeing it, and knew I really respected her and liked her a lot and thought, Great, I am ready for a new challenge. I know that I trust and really respectful leader, and I'm excited by the opportunity to get to build something kind of ground up. And so I made the jump. And it's been a lot, it's been a lot of learning, but really exciting. I think when I think about whether or when people are applying for new jobs, a lot of people get hung up on the job itself. And I, I believe that there's more value in looking at the culture that you're looking for, as opposed to the role, even though worst job is bearable, if you're in a culture that you enjoy. And if you enjoy the people you're working with, and you respect and enjoy the people you're working for. So I encourage people to look at the culture and find out what they can about what the work environments really like. And then find what works for you. Because everybody's gonna have their own their own different things that they're looking for. Yeah, and so just thinking about what you want that nine to five to look like, if that's if there's going to be 40 hours of your life every week, you should enjoy it. As much as I said, lifelong, like, three minutes ago, it's also short. Chop, you don't like the podcast of changing my mind. Good. And then they say to you, like if you're on the fence, a lot of people are like, I don't know, if I should apply for the job, do it. It's better to apply for it and back out if you change your mind or not get it than to kick yourself down the road for not applying for that gig. So I say always apply. Even the worst interview is an opportunity to learn and maybe you just kill it and it's great and you get the job and then you're happy. 

Bri Harvie  
It was there were a few things for sure. I think one of them kind of give you a bit of a strange answer for this, one of the weirdest things that I found really interesting is space is a big issue at the institution. So kind of people hodgepodge across campus. And I don't have a department that I oversee in one space. So they're all also around campus. And when I started, the only place they had for me was on the fourth floor of one of the newer buildings and in a school in our it's the MacPhail School of energies with all of our energy programs with a bunch of instructors. And beside me is our Director of indigenous engagement on one side and on the other side is our associate registrar and team lead for international recruitment and that I have instructors across me like it's just this weird kind of Island of Misfit Toys up here, people that didn't have anywhere else to go. And every single one of them loved where they worked. They have very different experiences and very different roles, but everybody's like, you're gonna love it. See, it's great. And I think that was really encouraging because as much as I knew what I was getting into, and I knew that the people I was going to be working with, we're passionate about what they did. It's encouraging to see that kind of hand institutional passion as well. And just how excited everybody has been for the change changes, terrifying, terrifying, new words terrifying. It can be really scary and really uneasy. And I know that people are very passionate about what they do, especially in kind of service, interesting stuff like academic advising. And they were all really keen, even the ones who were a little bit like, I don't totally know, I'm going to like where this lands. But I'm excited to see what happens in the meantime, it's been really encouraging.

Thomas Shelly  
Absolutely. I think that's great. Yeah, I think fit has so much to do with finding value and finding, finding your place. And and that's so important. Speaking the places. We are both from Canada. Yes, Don't you just love. And we've we've had this conversation before, but I think the listeners will really appreciate it. I'm curious for you to share how the Canadian higher education system may differ in contrast to the US.

Bri Harvie  
Yeah, and we have talked about this, I think this is something that we need to talk about more. It's a very interesting comparison to me, because they're both exactly the same and completely different all at the same time. When you look at the actual role of advising, the rules are very similar, right? If you really whittle it down to very, very base terms, we're doing a lot of the same work. But it's like the more you scale out from there, the more different they get. One of the biggest differences I saw earlier early on was the difference in student to advisor ratios. In Canada, it is not uncommon to have several 1000 students per advisor, which is next to unheard of in the United States from what I've kind of gathered in my years in Canada. But that's where the role gets really different. So in Canada, we see 2000 students per advisor, but you're doing way less case management way less proactive, reach out, it is a very reactive role. So that is a big difference between the two. And we're we're just starting in Canada to kind of embrace that smaller ratio, and look at doing more case management. And I hope that we learned some things from our our friends south of the border, but that that is the biggest kind of obvious difference between the two. The other big difference and one that I've talked about a lot is the difference in the education that you need to do the work. I know in the states it is very, very common for it to be mandatory to have graduate level education, either a master's or an MD or a PhD or whatever, in order to do advising and that is just not the case in Canada. Like you mentioned my entry I'm just working on my master's. Now I'm almost done, thank heavens, almost finished, and I am senior management and advising. My supervisor does not have a doctorate. She also has a Master's. My advisors, I think two or three of them have Masters, most of them have just degrees. And that's all they really need to do the work. And I think it's both, it's great to encourage higher education and further education. But it's also very career limiting if you aren't able to go after that graduate level degree. And so I see the value, but I also see it as being a little bit of a barrier for some for some professional, some young professionals. So I hope that we we stay like we are, and we don't require master's degrees to do advising in Canada, but at the same time, maybe develop then more, more opportunities for graduate level work in our young professionals. And I think a lot of that comes down to we have 10% The population of the United States, which means we have 10% of the institutions. And I think it's actually less than that. But we just we don't have the same access to, to college and university settings. So yeah, it's just a bit of a different landscape there as far as education, but it's at the end of the day, like I said, same role, different buckets we fall into.

Thomas Shelly  
Yeah, I would, I would say, in contrast, in the US, I taught I my bachelor's degree was in teaching, I taught language arts for a number of years before transitioning into higher education. And I was even like 89%, done with my master's degree applying for jobs and not a single interview. And while I work with children all the time, I've graduated hundreds and hundreds of children. And I can do that with higher education to please give me a chance. But yeah, the second I have my internship under my belt.

Bri Harvie  
Well, I think what really and it kind of grinds my gears a little bit, if I'm going to turn return this answer into a bit of a rant, but I don't understand the push to have graduate level education institutions that don't have graduate level programs. And so that's where I always get kind of hung up is, if my institution doesn't have master's programs, why do I need to have a master's program to work there. And it's, I understand that we want to promote education, and we want to promote higher ed, and we want to promote learning and lifelong learning and all those things. But I, I see it as being so limiting for some people. And I mean, a lot of my research is in imposter ism and gender roles and things like that. And I think about the women in my life who are not able to do a Masters because they their career was already slowed down by having to take maternity leaves. And or just the fact that women in our field are typically promoted less often than their male counterparts. And now we're adding needing to have graduate level education on top of it at an institution that doesn't have graduate level programs. And it's just it seems like a bit of an imbalance in our field. And so, yeah, I don't really want to see us needing to require Master's levels education, but it's, it's a thing in the States for sure. And I'd be glad that it's not a thing up here. And I hope that it stays that way for now. 

Thomas Shelly  
It can definitely be a barrier. I know that in most cases, a master's degree is considered a preferred qualification, but when everyone you're competing against already has one, then then it's not really a preferred qualification. And yeah, I can be a barrier for for individuals, certainly. And then like you mentioned earlier, for our listeners in Canada, maternity leave is is much longer than in the US. 

Bri Harvie  
In Canada, we it's so it's typically a year, your institution doesn't pay for the full year or most post secondary institutions. Canada don't pay for the full year, but you qualify for employment pay through the Government of Canada. And they actually just recently wrote when I was going on maternity leave just after they extended it to 18 months, which is wild. And I mean, it's it's a huge perk of living in Canada that you get that extra time with your family. But it does also really slow down your career. So it's a choice. It's a hard choice, but it is a choice you're making for sure. 

Thomas Shelly  
Those and this kind of goes back to what we were talking about at the top about you know, life is long and is short and you know what, during those really formative years of, you know, having a baby. Probably want to, like be there. And if at, you know, the cost of, you know, taking steps up in your in your career that's, you know, sometimes sacrifices are necessary when? Yes, yes. Which really ties well into the next question that I have, which I definitely wrote down was how does parenting inform your practice in advising or supervising and vice versa?

Bri Harvie  
Oh my gosh, yes. So much, so much. So I have a daughter named Ella. She is she just turned six. Actually, I have a picture of her right here. And to do one of this, look at our cute she is a little graduation. She graduated kindergarten, which wasn't a thing that I was aware that people did. But she did. So congratulations. But yeah, it's I don't know, I love being a parent. And I love advising and I love supervising and they are shockingly similar. Given the difference in age, more often than not, she I have a very, very smart kid. She's a very, very sweet kid. And we are able to have similar conversations that I have with my employees and I have with kind of escalated students, I talk a lot with her. She's gonna be the only six year old in the world that knows what a proportional response is. And we talked about proportional responses. It started as a like, this is a big reaction to a small problem. And now it's turned into is this a proportional response? You know, Mama? Sometimes it's Yes, Mama. And I think the same thing with students. And it's like, especially with our high achieving students, like you got a bad grade on one quiz. Is this really worth giving up the whole program for is that a proportional response to a seemingly small problem? No. Okay. So let's de escalate it and figure out how we want to actually appropriate approach this with employees. Same same, they have very big reactions to things that they can't necessarily impact. And it's about kind of whittling down that sphere of influence and figuring out what we can impact. We talk a lot about working with students and having them grow skills and having ownership of their education and being empowered to do their to take control of their education and be responsible for their educational choices. And those are all things that we talk about as parents too, with kids and like you have to own the responsibility, and you have to own the consequences of your decisions. Another thing I think about a lot is, there's this Venn diagram, and it's one circle is things that you care about. And the other circle is things you can change, and you want to live kind of where the two intersect. And I think that is what we want to talk to our employees about to our students about to our staff members about and again, also something we talk to our kids about where it's like, no, you can't have ice cream for breakfast every day. I know that you care about having ice cream for breakfast every day. But you can't. And here's all the reasons why. So let's live in that middle section. Though, I would also love to eat ice cream for breakfast every day. So that's a hard one to say no to. I mean, it's crazy. Crazy how often the two are the same? 

Thomas Shelly  
Smoothie bowls are a thing. So that's basically I say, so yes, it's 100% you're basically there. Like it's close, right? You have a glass of milk, but the smoothie bowl and it's just a deconstructed ice cream.

Bri Harvie  
Might as well have the construction version, like chocolate sauce on it and color a day.

Thomas Shelly  
Yeah, I I love that kind of proportional terminology that you used earlier. I think that's, that's so valuable. It's something that I too saw when I was advising pharmacy students where you're in a pressure cooker and you get your first b minus and you've had four Oh, since you were seven the world crumbles in front of your face and and we have to zoom out and look at the big picture and be like, does this be minus make you less of a person? Yes. And and what kind of aspects can we shift in your mindset to build in more growth to imply that improvement can be made perfectionism while really valuable specifically to myself, I'm a very great person isn't always the best thing either. And, and we can all grow and learn from each other and from from our, you know, the children that we serve and the the students that we serve and the the coworkers that we have and our supervisors who are also sometimes free.

Bri Harvie  
Yeah, and it's the perfectionism one I think is a really interesting one you talking about, like the 4.0 student who now gets their first b minus when I was First starting at Mount Royal, I worked with our Faculty of Education students, and they are like, high achieving to the nth degree, the program average GPA was like a 3.8 out of four, it's just wild how high achieving the work. And there would actually be time for it of students in my office. And I'd have to show them like, okay, so you got to be minus in one course, when we say assignment, you gotta be medicine, of course, one of 10 courses that looks like it has a big impact on your GPA. I mean, it doesn't, but it looks like it does. And then we would go and we'd actually do the math of like, what is the impact in a year? What is the impact in two years? What is the impact when you're graduating? And just seeing the impact slowly whittle away, and become smaller and smaller and smaller than saying, okay, so what do you think the impact of that be minus is going to be in 15 years, when you're applying for an EVP job? Very little, nobody's gonna care. But the B minus that you got when you were 18 years old and brand new in your degree, they're barely gonna care about it when you graduate, because it's going to have so little impact. So think about that kind of far down goal, whatever it is that you're trying to achieve? And then what is actually the impact? Is it big? Or is it small? And if it is big, fine? How do we work with it? How do we work around it? How do we learn from it and move forward?

Thomas Shelly  
Yeah, and those are conversations that I've kind of had to flip with students to where, where there really is a shift in, you know, I failed my first class, I have to retake it. And what does that look like? And and because this happened, what do I do now? And I'm like, Well, an F means you, you made an attempt, or with a withdrawal means you made an attempt, any grade that you take is an attempt. And you have to attempt again, and I teach people that want to be educators now. And we do a lot of conversations about you will have students who fail your class. Yeah. And how much more can you empathize with a student mid term that begins failing your class? And how can you shift their mindset, like you shifted yours? So it's a lot of that kind of conversation, too.

Bri Harvie  
And it's hard. And it's hard to do. It's hard to shift your mindset from like, how would you approach this with one of your students? But it's, it's an important thing to be able to do, especially I think, is people working with young students, whether they be seven or 20?

Thomas Shelly  
They're the same that basically they Yeah, the agent to act exactly the same? Yeah. 100%. So my next question here, shifting a little bit to I mean, the reason for the season, why we're why we're here to begin with is what got you connected with Nikana. On your kind of journey into suddenly becoming part of, of this career path.

Bri Harvie  
Yeah, this is it's another kind of by accident story, but I love it. And I consider myself also an adopted region nine member I know Matt said that you were but I am. I'm making him adopt me also. My first NACADA conference was actually a region nine conference. And it was just because the region a conference was after the end of our budget year, the institution I was at at the time. And so my supervisor was like, great. Go to one of these, we have to go to region nine, and it was in California, and it was in must have been like beginning of March. And it was very cold where I was from, and I was like, yes, 100%, I will go to California, if I must. And so off agenda to the nichetto region night conference in LA. And it was amazing. And I mean, I'm a very introverted person. And so going to a conference without anybody's is a little bit daunting. And I didn't go to any of the like, for fun stuff. In the evenings, I just sat in my hotel room. And I think I was watching scrubs at the time, and I just like eat pizza and bed and watch scrubs. But the number of people that I met during the sessions during the day, like I still talk to some of them. And I and it's one of my favorite stories, actually, from an academy conference was that this conference and I went to the newcomers breakfast on the first day, it was like the first conference or first time conference attendees breakfast, and again, very introverted. So I kind of wanted to throw up in my shoes a little bit, but I was like, I'm gonna go, I gotta find a table. I'm going to make small talk, it's going to be great. And everybody's going to live through this, and it'll be fun. And I sat down at this table and was like, trying not to make eye contact with anybody and really hoping somebody else initiated small talk. Everybody else was talking to each other. And so I finally looked at the the person sitting next to me, and I said, what about you? Is this also your first time conference? And they very politely were like, No, I've been to a few. And I was like, great. And then the speakers started and they're like, and now we're going to introduce one of the members of the board to come and give some words and it was this person that was sitting next to me and I was like, Are you new to they were? Yeah, part of the board and so I was mortified, but then I had to follow that person around and met other people that were also involved in academies or started talking to them about their experiences and was like this is, this is cool, I think I think I could like these people. And so then about a year and a half later, I was on a conference planning committee. I then moved to Mount Royal and my supervisor there was on the steering committee for Region eight at the time. And so I plant a couple of conferences with her and then I became an Alberta liaison. Actually, when I was on maternity leave, that was a really good way for me to kind of stay connected. to Canada, though, admittedly, the first two meetings I was at I was not very useful. I think I just kind of sat there the first meeting, I was about 14 months pregnant. And the second meeting, I had like a three day old baby. But it was a great way to stay connected to the field while it was on mat leave. And then I was a region chair after that. And I did ELP, the Emerging Leaders Program, which is coming back, I keep hearing, so that's exciting. And yeah, here we are. It's, it's been wild.

Thomas Shelly  
Wow. Amazing. Yeah, I love I love that, in in our field, so much of it kind of comes to to chance, you know, I just, I happened into this role. I saw this description of this job on LinkedIn or, and I applied and now and now I'm here, and now I'm doing this thing. Yeah. 100%. It's it is. I got involved in the kind of when I was in grad school, interning at the liberal arts college that my husband was working at and housing. And I was like, Great, I'll just do my internship where we live because he was required to live in the dorm. So I guess, here I am free. And that was the first time I submitted a conference proposal was for the 2020. Conference, that best conference had never happened. before. Yeah. And it was it was such a wild experience. You know, I had such a phenomenal team of people and supervisors that were like, We want you to have this experience. So you're going to be the one in charge of submitting the proposal, and it was really formative and valuable. And then the conference didn't happen, but that's okay.

Bri Harvie  
It did. It was just two years late.

Thomas Shelly  
That's yeah. And I had COVID during that conference.

Bri Harvie  
So full disclosure. 2020, I think was actually one of my favorite conferences, and it never actually happened. But it was so for the listeners, we were planning the region, a conference in Victoria, and Janine and Melina from University of Victoria, were co chairing this conference. And they had put together one of the best conferences I've ever seen. I was on the planning committee. It was March 2020. I flew out. A colleague of mine and I walked over to the conference center. Once we blended we got there a day early, as planning committees often do. And we walked in, and our Regional Chair at the time was like, joke's on you conference is canceled. And about 40 people had already arrived for the conference. And so we were like, well, I guess we'll just strike down the conference. But we still had all the food and all the beverages and stuff for the reception. So we just had a party. And it was great. And I met some people over that day and a half where we were all stranded. And Victoria tried to book flights out that I'm friends with to this day, and colleagues and make connections and it's it was I mean, Misery loves company. Nobody wanted the conference to be canceled. But here we were, and yeah, it was wild. And then yes, you were on the 2022 conference planning committee, which che Ellingham and I were co chairing at COVID. Like, the minute before you were supposed to come which was the worst.

Thomas Shelly  
I think I was. I was like, 16 hours or something from getting on the ferry. And then and then I had covered but yeah, I it was a great time. It was it was a time. It was another time. And my first I think my first imperson regional conference was last year. Like that's that's how long it took for me to be able to I was in Vegas. That was your first Vegas was my first regional conference. I helped plan 20 two's regional conference, but it couldn't go.

Bri Harvie  
Did you go to so what annual conferences have you got to that? 

Thomas Shelly  
I went very different. I guess. I did the 2021 regional regional conference virtually.

Bri Harvie  
Yeah. Okay, yep,

Thomas Shelly  
I did that one. But my Yeah, my first annual conference was Portland, which I also helped plan.

Bri Harvie  
Wow. You're new to the in person stuff. 

Thomas Shelly  
Yeah, I started, you know, like, that's before. Before COVID happened? How did COVID shift the way that your office advices? 

Bri Harvie  
It didn't change anything at all? No, nothing. Yeah, everything, all of the things changed. It was exhausting. We is it institution, we didn't do any virtual advising at the time. When COVID hit, we were completely in person, sometimes we do over the phone. And I mean, it hit I was talking about this with somebody else recently, and it hit at the conference, we all flew home. And remember talking to my supervisor, I'm saying like, if this is the big deal, it is I have to work from home, my husband is immune compromised, I need to protect my family to yours, like, yeah, you do what you gotta do, will probably be home for a couple of weeks. And I was like, perfect, then I'm not gonna learn anything new about how to virtual advice, because if it's two weeks, I'll just do this over the phone. And it'll be fun. Yeah. And then at the end of the two weeks, now we're like, end of March, or like, maybe June, maybe we'll be able to come back in June. And that was when finally we were like, Okay, well, now we have to figure out this whole Google meets thing. Well, that's because we were at Google institution. Of course, and it was, it was wild. And I think there are pros and cons, for sure to being able to do virtual advising. I don't think that there's the same level of connection and a virtual appointment there. It's just harder to do. But it's also way more convenient for some of our student populations. So people who are working 40 hours a week as many of them are because the cost of living is so bananas high here in Canada right now, they can't necessarily come to school, they also work 40 hours a week and have time for an in person appointment. So maybe virtual is the only way they can do it, it's on a lunch break. Great, let's do it. It also taught us how to do more group advising in a virtual setting. Again, group advising even in person not as effective as one on one but in a virtual setting you can throw people into breakout rooms and then you get group advising with some of the advantages of one on one advising. It also made us get really really good at our tools or resources because we didn't have the same opportunities to kind of work through tech issues with students so we had to kind of ramp up our online presence game and that has continued so it's there were definitely some advantages that came from having to go remote all of my plants in my office died I always have lots of Office plants and they all died and I was very very sad but then I learned how to keep them alive in my home and now there's plants all over so see advantages.

Thomas Shelly  
Wow pros and cons short and long life span short. I was gifted a poinsettia last not this past Christmas but the Christmas before and I was like I've never tried to keep one of these alive. I'm going to try and do that and all its leaves fell off. And I'm gonna keep watering this thing and the leaves group back and now I have a poinsettia.

Bri Harvie  
What about your cats? No sir No bueno for your cats, my friend.

Thomas Shelly  
Nina is fine. Nina is not a jumper. She is. It was it was an office plant but I don't get direct sunlight and my poinsettia needs it needs direct sunlight. And so it's in my kitchen window sill above my sink and Nina will one never go near the sink will never jump on the counter and will never touch my poinsettia. And then eventually I will move it back to a window in here that has direct sunlight but I will say my cat...my poinsettia wild both alive just gonna I guess an advising analogy and there are somewhere.

Bri Harvie  
So what about like sometimes your cat eats or plant my cat almost ended up on the front porch in a boxing free cat because she ate one of my plants very very carefully trying to grow but she ate the plant and I helped take care of the plant and now the plant is lovely again and that there's the connection to advising. Yeah, learn from mistakes.

Thomas Shelly  
That's the tie back with with the growth that you feel like you've experienced in the condo what would you say is your favorite moment or story? I know we just talked about the 2020 conference and how much you loved it. Is there one thing?

Bri Harvie  
Is there one thing, there are so many things, I have so much one of those conferences. I, I've been to some really great sessions. And I'm not going to necessarily call any of them out. But I think I always just am so encouraged by the energy of conferences. As an introvert, it is exhausting. But I also love every minute of it. So it's a very strange kind of personal thing that I always have to work through or like, I'm going to be so tired, but this is going to be so good. I remember, I think okay, so I'm going to tell this story when we were in. I don't remember where it was you and me, my friend. Must have been Vegas. Where did we go last? What month? Is it? Nope, it was Orlando. I'm gonna remember what I'm gonna try.

Thomas Shelly  
I pulled it up, I will tell you exactly which because it was the one I was going to that it was called The Joy of advising Bob Ross inspired life lessons for advisors. And students shout out to both Kip and Rachel from The University of Alabama Birmingham for for this wonderful session.

Bri Harvie  
Amazing and I still have I have on my side, I have the pin. And it's with my advising is the core key to success pin and my holistic advising no matter why no me out or what up like a can't read the last word "no meowter what" pin is with my my Bob Ross can up there. But it's, this session was really great. So for those of you who didn't get to come to this, I'm sad because you shouldn't. But it was just about all of the different stages in a Bob Ross painting, which I'm obsessed with Bob Ross was all over this and how we can apply all of those to the student journey as well. But what I think really stood out for me is so you may or may not remember, but we were some of the last people to arrive. And we ended up sitting on the floor or leaning against the wall. And there was like 20 Other people back there with us. And it was just other people would walk in. Nobody was like, oh, there's no seats, I'm gonna leave. They're like, this is what I need to do to attend this session. Okay, I guess I'm sitting on the floor. And so there was just like hordes of us sitting on the floor, we could still see what was going on taking notes, we all had our laptops on their lap, and we're like typing away, they were handing out these buttons. And it was just it felt like a little family just like this is what we have to do to make this work. So we're gonna make it work. Nobody cares that we're sitting on the floor. And I, I will think about that at the most random times. But it's often kind of the example that comes to head to my mind when I think about like the culture of Canada, because that's the culture. It's like, just do what you got to do. We're all in this together, what's making it work? And it's Yeah, I mean, it was also an amazing session that I am most definitely going to try to get a virtual recording of or something. So I'm gonna show it to my team too. So good.

Thomas Shelly  
I saw the handouts downloaded on my phone. The video clips, the hair with each of the things. The idea of starting with a blank canvas, and then talking about happy little accidents.

Bri Harvie  
Happy little accidents, and everybody needs a friend. Oh, there's so many. 

Thomas Shelly  
Another great session. I don't have a pulled up and I apologize for our listeners. But there was a phenomenal bond about the music of Stephen Sondheim that was on the morning of the last day of the conference. And it was so lovely. And we all got to listen to Sondheim in the morning to kind of tie a bow on on the session and the conference as a whole. So it was really lovely.

Bri Harvie  
Oh, I wish I got to that one too. 

Thomas Shelly  
It was a I think it was first thing that was like the first session in the morning on the last day. So bummer. One, to re have two more questions for two more questions. So one question, what is one piece of advice that you would give to a colleague or supervisor? Or excuse me, let me try that one more time. Because the actual question is one piece of advice that a colleague or supervisor shared with you that you want to pass off to our listeners.

Bri Harvie  
Yeah, so I love this one. So my current supervisor introduced me to the world of Brene Brown's daring. Dare to lead. Yes, I had heard of Brene before I'd seen all of her not seen all of her but like seen a lot of her TED Talk seen a lot of the little clips that make the rounds on on the YouTube and the Instagram and but I hadn't read dare to lead and she gifted it to me when she was leaving or previous institution and I have read it I learned a lot from it. But there was one quote and it's actually in her special as well which I think is on Netflix and I would highly recommend that I I wanted to, to kind of highlight so the quote, and there is one swear word in it. So if you are of the sensitive ears just ear muffs for a minute here. But the quote is, if you are not in the arena, getting your ass kicked on occasion, I am not interested in or open to your feedback. There are a million cheap seats in the world today filled with people who will never be brave with their own lives, but will spend every ounce of energy they have hurling advice and judgment at those of us trying to dare greatly. And I think about that a lot, I think about how easy it is nowadays to be subjected to the commentary of others, both in social media and professionally. And it's, it's this culture of I have an opinion. So I have the right to share it, instead of maybe spending more time reflecting and responding in a less. I don't want to say judgy way, but we'll say judging away for now. And it's about choosing which opinions you can take in and really reflect on and which opinions you need to just kind of brush off and not put a whole lot of stock in. And I really liked how she, how she spun it up. Like if they're not people that you would want to in the arena kind of fight in the fight with you than they don't matter. Their opinion does not matter. And it's an important skill to learn to drown them out. Because it's easy to focus on the negative comments, and not see the positive feedback that you're getting. Because we're so pinpointed on the negative. Antonio, that is a quote I come back to a lot in my life, just to remember whose opinion I value? And who's I need to just not today?

Thomas Shelly  
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's That is great advice. Especially when people give you unwarranted advice. I'm sure you probably felt similarly, when you were pregnant, or had just had your child to getting so many unwarranted, like pieces of advice from people.

Bri Harvie  
Well, and it's sometimes it's like I, when I was a brand new parent, I would always say I'll take all the advice, or I'll hear all the advice, I might not take it, but I will listen to it. But now I think I've learned like sometimes I just don't want to hear it. Sometimes I'm not looking for advice, sometimes I'm just doing my best. And I need to just remember that and be a little bit gentler with myself. And remember that as much as continuous improvement is great. Sometimes status quo is also fine. Just do it, do what you got to do. Good for you not for me do what you got to do.

Thomas Shelly  
That's another thing that that I've kind of realized and advising is sometimes a student will share or disclose something that they're struggling with or worrying about. And they don't need your help to figure out what they're doing. They just need someone to listen. And I think that's been one of the things that I've been carrying on this, this kind of academic year is like, I don't need to give you all the resources unless you are like, actually, I really, I can you know, I can offer the options, if you want to hear them. And kind of preface it with that has been really valuable for me. 

Bri Harvie  
Well, I try to do that with my, with my staff to my team members, because it's like I said earlier that people that work in advising are passionate about what they do. Nobody does this for the money. We're not raking in millions here. And so it's important though, to kind of curb that passion with realism. And sometimes you have to be you have to have the opportunity to just be passionate. So if I feel like a rat is coming on, sometimes I'll say like, do you just want me to listen? Or do you want me to help with this? And it doesn't matter what the answer is, I'm still going to be there. But I mean, I do this with my partner sometimes do with my husband, I'll say like it's just want to ranter gesture will help with this. Or I'll say like, I just want to rent I actually don't want your help right now. And it's important to be able to do both. And be able to solution for people and just be also be a bit of a sounding board and just sit there and be like yes, everything you're saying is 100% valid.

Thomas Shelly  
There you go. Active listening, and empathy is so important. And Brene Brown is huge on that too. And I love that. Yes, I'm I'm reading Gifts of Imperfection right now. Which is really hard for me because I am perfect. So I just can't relate to anything. It's a struggle. It's a struggle being perfect. Tom actually can't read. It's really learning how to read with BreneBrown. People. What closing thoughts do you have about your adventure and advising and what is on the horizon for you? What are you what are your hopes?

Bri Harvie  
Yeah, I think my biggest piece of advice for people in advising would be to find your people Brene talks about finding your your board. I think I've heard that a few different places. We actually ran a session together Thomas where we talked about that too, also in Orlando, but no finding your board find your people. And I think I think it's really important and your people don't even necessarily need to be Like at your institution, like you are one of my people, we don't even live in the same country, you're still one of my people. And I think NACADA is a great place to find those people and really build those connections. It's post secondary is hard. It's a hard. It's a hard job. It's a hard place to work. It's a hard place to live. But it's also a really great place to work and live. But it can be thankless, it can be exhausting, it can be tiring, especially when we are all weather because other states are at the mercy of political change and demographic change that we have no or little control over. And so I think if you, if you find your people, it'll just make it easier to kind of push through the hard times so that you can get back to the good times. So that would be my my biggest piece of advice is find your people find your real people, the people that say your name in the room, even when you're not there. I know that's a saying that goes around a lot like your champions. Those are the people you want to focus your time and energy on. As far as hopes Oh, I don't know, this is a tricky one. Because it's, I think COVID has made me shrink by my hope timeline a little bit because it's like you never know what five years from now is gonna bring, we could be smack in the middle of a global pandemic, I would like to, to keep working with the cat, I'm coming to the end of my my time as region chair. I have zero intention of backing away from an academy though I want to keep kind of my foot in that door and keep keep fighting the good fight. I think it's important to have a global community for advising like we do. And I would like to see it become more global. So I really would like to keep kind of picking away at that and how to become more international as a as an association. And then keep building these connections. Like I when you say that your first in person conference was Portland. It's like that was just like a year and a half ago. Like I feel like I've known you for years, because we've been involved virtually for forever. And there are other people across the association, that same thing. I have these great, I met Stephanie Schrader from the executive office for the first time in Orlando. And she said she was like, It's our first time meeting face to face. I was like, No, it's not. It can't be because I've known you forever. And so I want to keep building those connections and finding those people. And I think that that is a great place to do it. 

Thomas Shelly  
Well, great. Thank you so much, Bri, for being here and answering all my lovely questions and teaching me how to read.

Bri Harvie  
Well, anytime I could teach you to read while I teach Ella. It'll be great. Thanks for having me. Thanks for your questions. This was awesome.

Thomas Shelly  
Good time to chat with you, Bri.