Dealing with Compassion Fatigue - Adventures in Advising

In episode 86, we chat with Dr. Quentin Alexander with James Madison University and Dr. Charlie Nutt, retired NACADA Executive Director. Charlie gives his thoughts on leadership changes in NACADA and being the latest recipient of the Virginia N. Gordon award, while Quentin discusses what compassion fatigue is and how it differs from burnout. Learn about the symptoms of compassion fatigue and what tips you can use to combat this. 

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Adventures in Advising podcast. This is Matt Markin, and we are at episode 86. And we are a couple weeks off the heels of the NACADA annual conference in Orlando. And on today's episode, we have two special guests. And our first guest is Dr. Charlie Nutt, retired executive director of NACADA, Charlie, welcome back.

Charlie Nutt  
Thank you so much, man. I can't believe you on episode 86.

Matt Markin  
86 right now, but I already have 87 recorded.

Charlie Nutt  
That is, I'm so proud of you and Colum to start this. This is just I can remember in us talking about this in Belgium. And so, just so proud of you. 

Matt Markin  
I know. We were looking forward to seeing Colum in Orlando. Unfortunately, he couldn't make it, but I did tell him that Charlie said you need to be in Pittsburgh next year, so he's working on it. So how have you been? How have you been enjoying retirement?

Charlie Nutt  
I'm doing great retirement. Wonderful. I've been working the yard this morning and moving some rocks from one part of the yard to the other, and was just sitting there finishing up doing that, when all of a sudden your note came up, and I thought, Oh, God, I go get all the internet. So, you know, we're taught to retirement. It's wonderful what time. It was great to see everybody in Orlando. It was great to see the executive office staff doing what they always do, which is amazing work and working together and moving forward. And so it was a it was a great conference. And as always, it was great to see you and now to talk with you.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, shout out to JJ and shade as the conference coaches for Orlando. And of course, to the nacot executive office, especially Farrah and Dana, who, as always, excellent job. 

Charlie Nutt  
I tell you what, those two ladies, they are, they are simply amazing. They really, really are. We're, we're very, very fortunate to have them both.

Matt Markin  
Absolutely and since you were in Orlando at the conference, any conference takeaways that that you could share for for listeners?

Charlie Nutt  
You know, I think that the couple of the things, I think the first keynote speech speaker was amazing. I think she really talked about the the concept of advising and how it plays into student success, but also institutional success, you know, which was what I was very impressed with. You know, we always talk about advising and regard to student success, but she really brought it forward into the success of the institution. And I thought that was really powerful within that. I really did, you know, the sessions were amazing. The hotel was great. You know, I loved the white halls. People had an opportunity to, you know, step stop and chat and find a place to sit down. Sometimes those Convention Center hallways are small and it's hard to get around, but this one was just really easy to to maneuver. And I just think it was a great a great place and a great conference.

Matt Markin  
Oh, absolutely. I mean, for me, you know, I always loved going to the poster sessions. I always feel it a little bit too early in morning, but you got to squeeze everything in as much as possible. But this poster session, they had so many amazing presenters topics, and so I spent that whole hour there and probably talked to almost everyone.

Charlie Nutt  
I did too. I went through there and and, you know, sometimes you pass some up. There were none to pass up. I mean, they did. They did amazing job. They really did.

Matt Markin  
Now one of the things at the conference, and I don't know if they surprised you with this, but the executive office was selling the Charlie's legacy socks, and with the tagline of, Charlie is nuts about NACADA socks and scholarships. So, how did that come about?

Charlie Nutt  
Patrice contacted me about that in summer. And said, you know, would you be willing to support this? And if we get that way? And Patrice knows me, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do anything Nakata asked me to do to support NACADA. And so I said, Absolutely, but put whatever you want on the socks, and put whatever poster you want and those types of things. So that was just a great opportunity, you know, we started the scholarship fund for members to be able to go to events, and we always do a lot to put money toward that, but was the first time to really have something that people could really, you know, buy, commit to it and hopefully continue that commitment to those scholarships. So, no, it wasn't a surprise. I knew it was coming up. They it was, this was typical. Great job by the EO.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I got my my pair of socks, so I will be wearing those to work. And it's great that, yeah, anyone that bought it the money was. Going straight into scholarships through NACADA. And NACADA has gone through some leadership changes over the last couple of years. You know, you retiring. We had Dr. Melinda Anderson as Executive Director, then now Dr. Kyle Ross stepping into the executive director role since this past August. What do people not know about what an executive director of NACADA has to do to help ensure the success of the organization.

Charlie Nutt  
You know, it's a it's a huge job, I think, over the years, I hope I did a pretty good job of of hiring and retaining staff who do amazing work. You know, Ben Hopper with the regions, and Casey Schwartz and Liz with the commissions and the awards. And, you know, just moving that forward, I think that the the biggest part of the job is just the connecting with people. And, you know, the traveling is a lot, and you have to do that and and just get out and meet people and bring people forward as part of the association. But I think the biggest part is in my role at least. And I'm sure Melinda did it differently, and Kyle would do it even differently. Was just connecting with people, you know, trying to make sure I remember names, and all going up to people say, Okay, I know your face, but I remember your name. I remember seeing you at this conference, and we had this chat, and did they tell me their name? And then I would try to remember from that point forward, but at least remembering faces. And always remember that I don't remember what conference we were at, Michelle holiday and Bev Martin were at the NACADA booth, and they, every time I would walk by, they would put a little scratch on the table. I said, What are y'all doing? They said, We're trying to figure out whether you really know these people. You're just saying hey. I said, I do know them all. I just don't know their names at this moment. You know, I think that's a big part of it. You know, Matt, and I know some people don't like this terminology, but I will always consider the Carter family, and it's bringing folks together and making them feel a commitment to the association, commitment to each other, but also commitment to just the profession. And so I think that those are the biggest parts of the job that you're doing in relation to all the other pieces. You know, we've got some great staff in the EO. So, you know, Maxine coffee oversees a group of folks, and Alan club has a group of folks, and when he Troxel and Kyle will be hiring another person in the program development piece. So you know, it's not like, it's not like the executive director has to oversee or manage everyone in there. It's it's providing leadership, not management. And I think that's what I know Melinda did, and I know Kyle will do as we go forward, but it's just recognizing that. I think it also goes back to what I said in the closing session, when Kyle asked me to say a few words, and that is as as as higher education grows and advising grows, the executive office is going to need to grow in order to provide the support to what I think we 20,000 members in a few in a few years. And so I think all of those pieces play into it.

Matt Markin  
And you know, when you think of Melinda and now Kyle, what comes to mind? Who are Melinda and Kyle to you?

Charlie Nutt  
You know, they've been friends for years. I met them both when they were at region two, region three conferences, region eight conferences. I think, I think Kyle was like, maybe 13. No, not really, but I mean, he was, he was a kid when I first met him, you know. And I, and I, I've said this to many people, including Kyle. I can remember Kyle sitting me down at a region eight at conference and saying, I'd like to be president one day. What are the 10 things I need to do? And I just kind of walked him through, how to get involved with the leadership, how to get the next connection, what are the types of partnerships you need to grow and those types of things. And I just tell him, he took it one step further, and now is in the EO position. But they both were so are so committed to the association, and just want the association to grow and expand. And and I know that they did under Melinda. I know, I know they'll grow even more it with tile. You know, we're just now, I think, beginning to slowly recover from the the enrollment shocks of the pandemic. You know, I I still read the Inside Higher Ed every morning. And, you know, the r1 institutions that are beginning to see this grow back up, and the community colleges that are state colleges, and as we continue to grow, advising is going to continue to be important, and the Cotter has got to be there as a key role with that it's important. We, you know, we partner. With folx like NASPA, we partner with folks like NACADA, like NODA or AACC. Those are great groups for us to partner with. But the key to remember is that's our role. Our role is supporting academic advising and in many different ways. Because advisors, you know, if you're in Student Affairs, who tend to be in a staff position where we have advisors who are faculty, who are staff, who are whatever the case may be, and the kind of needs to bring all of those pieces together. And so I know Melinda did. I know Carl's going to do a great job. I just feel, you know, sometimes I feel like a grandpa to all these folks, but I'm both very, very proud of both of them and the work they've done and the work I know they'll continue to do.

Matt Markin  
And at the Orlando conference, there's an award session, and you also won an award, correct?

Charlie Nutt  
Yes, yes, the Virginia Gordon award.

Matt Markin  
Yeah. So tell us about Virginia Gordon and what it meant to you to be nominated and to to win that award.

Charlie Nutt  
Virginia was an amazing human being. She was a faculty member, but she was also an advisor. She ultimately oversaw advising at a college at the Ohio University, as she used to say, she wrote prolifically about advising. She was one of the first books I ever read about advising within that but she was also so down to earth, is what I liked about her. You know, a lot of folks, and I hope Don't insult anybody, but a lot of folks, where they become authors and writers and and research gurus kind of get a little above some folks and and Virginia never did. She was always, you know, she'd sit down with a brand new advisor and say, where are you? And tell me what you do on your campus. And used to scare the debt some of us when she did that the first time, until we realized that she really was interested. She wanted to know, you know, her very last conference, I think, was Chicago, and that was a whether you were there, but that was a huge convention center, and, and I kind of helped her get to places and, and she said, Okay, this is my last one. I can't do these steps anymore. And the year after, I happened to be in Columbus, and I went with George and peg still to Virginia's for dinner, and saw her just amazing bonsai tree garden in the Japanese garden in the backyard. And she was, she was just as proud of that bonsai garden as it had been about her students or advising, or NACADA, she was just just an amazing woman. It you know, the longer you're in this association, the more you feel connected to people, and the more you admire people. And Virginia was one of those people that I had such admiration for and felt so powerful about within that. And for years, I've worked behind the scenes and and worked with folks to make sure that we had, you know, good quality candidates for this role. And people like Susan Campbell and and Jennifer Joslin, Kathy Davis and Nancy King and, you know, folx who are much, in my opinion, much more powerful and have much more to say than I do. So it was an honor. It was had few tears during the whole day that the email came, you know, the email came about, you know, just about the award seminar, I thought, that's all it was. And then it got to the bottom. It said, send you a picture. And I thought I sent a picture, about why I sent a picture. And then I went back up and started reading and realized what it said, and and I was, I was pretty much taken aback. It was, it was quite an honor to have my name in any way connected with Virginia is, it's more powerful to me than, than, than anything else I could I've done in the association, you know, it was wonderful to, you know, Susan Campbell and Casey self kind of cheered the nomination packet, yeah. But to hear from former students who are now in advising. You know, Nathan Vickers wrote a letter. Ben Chamberlain, who's in Iowa, wrote a letter. And so, you know, to hear from students, to hear from colleagues. It was, it was it was very touching. It was very touching.

Matt Markin  
Well, Charlie, I want to be mindful of your time in retirement. Appreciate you always being a returning guest and always being such a supporter, being our first supporter to push us into doing this podcast. So Charlie, always a pleasure to have you on.

Charlie Nutt  
I'm just so proud of you, Matt. I'm so proud of column. I remember in Belgium thinking those two need to get together, either you or Colum, what were talking to somebody, and I just grabbed you and said, Okay, no, over here. It because I just thought I knew what y'all could do together. Y'all have done a fantastic job. So thank you for this podcast. Thank you for all you've done for region nine. I know you've just let the region nine share you have, you have a lot to offer this association to our leadership.

Matt Markin  
I always, always appreciate your comments. Going back to in Belgium, yes, for those that don't know Charlie, you know, I think I was talking to Brett McFarland, and then here you bring column, and then all of a sudden, you walk off, and it's like, okay, I guess we'd eat the chat, because Charlie wants us to do.

Charlie Nutt  
I knew what y'all could do is my job, just to introduce you. That's another role of the executive office executive directors, just to introduce people and then back away and let them do the what they need to do. I knew I didn't know what to do, but I knew y'all could do it, and you've done a phenomenal job.

Matt Markin  
I know I all speak with column. I know we both appreciate you and love you, and yes, it led to a lot of great partnerships that we were able to do over the years, and hopefully we'll continue to do and maybe something in Pittsburgh.

Charlie Nutt  
Thank you again, Charlie. Thanks so much. Tell Richard Hello. I

Matt Markin  
 will Okay. 

Charlie Nutt  
Take care. 

Matt Markin  
Let's welcome back to the podcast. Dr. Quentin Alexander, Associate Vice Provost for enrollment at James Madison University. Quentin, it's been a while since you've been on the podcast, welcome back.

Quentin Alexander  
Well, thank you, Matt. It has been a while since I've been on the podcast. I think the last time I was on the podcast, I was the senior director for academic advising at George Mason University, and since then, I've transitioned to a new position, Associate Vice Provost for enrollment at James Madison University, and that's been a pretty exciting adventure. So far in that role, I am in charge of academic advising for the entire institution, more specifically, university advising reports up to my office and University Advising covers pre professional health advising, First Year Advising, exploratory advising, and then general advising services. I'm also also, of course, my main role is with enrollment. So I am in charge of all of first year enrollment for students coming in as first time freshmen and transfer students, as well as summer and winter session. So a lot of my plate, the roles have tripled, I would say. But it's been exciting. It's been really exciting to make that transition. I talked to a friend of mine, I guess, every morning on the way to work. So I live in Northern Virginia, and I travel about an hour and 45 minutes, three days a week to go to Harrisonburg. Just so happened I just built a town home in Northern Virginia when the job was offered. So it's a beautiful drive, and it actually gets to the root of what I'm going to talk about today, like taking that time for yourself to recover daily. And I use that drive, this three and a half hours round trip. I use that drive to kind of recover, you know, going to work. I'm driving through the Shenandoah Valley, really beautiful mountains. You can see just clear picture of the Blue Ridge Mountains. And it's an easy drive, you know, not heavy traffic, and it's a steady flow. So on the way to work, I'm thinking about, what am I going to do? I take time to catch up with people I've not talked to in a while. On the way home, I decompress the same thing. So that's been my new adventure, in addition to a number of other things. 

Matt Markin  
Well, I guess you do need that drive, because we were talking right before we started recording it, about the fact that it's mid October, and with your role, you have so many things that you have to start thinking about or start planning right now, correct?

Quentin Alexander  
Yeah, that's correct. So it's like a continuing cycle, as it is with academic advising, right? So enrollment never really stops. Once you finish one session of enrollment you're planning for the next session. So we just finished, of course, Summer Enrollment for our incoming freshmen and incoming transfer students, and that ended with the add drop period, which ended after the first week of class, around the beginning of September, end of August, being in September. But we're already planning for the next enrollment phase, which will be open enrollment for spring that starts on November 6 for our continuing students. So that'll be all four classes of students, freshmen through seniors, and also working with the academic units to make sure we have seat availability for our incoming transfer students who will enter spring 2024 as well as our students who were first year freshmen, who deferred and decided to come in spring 2024 and at the same time, we are planning for summer orientation 2024 which deals specifically with first year enrollment and everything there in addition. Session Two, winter session, which starts in January. So that planning phase is going on. We have a really strong campaign, advertising and marketing communication campaign, and the planning and going on as well, and yeah, and then summer session too. So it just keeps going, the continuous cycle. 

Matt Markin  
I guess from your role, how do how do you plan out in terms of, okay, you have this new group of students coming in for spring, you have your continuing students, and it's almost like every term students. You want to make sure everyone can get the classes they need, but not everyone necessarily can get them at the same time, right? How do you work all that out?

Quentin Alexander  
So there's a great team that works with me in this whole process. We have what's called the new student enrollment group, and then we have a subcommittee of that group as well, and that involves campus partners, such as our division, which is student academic success and strategic enrollment management. And in that team, we have the Registered Office. I have three great people from the registers office that really understand the challenges we may have, but also working closely with the academic units. And I do enrollment meetings with each academic units, particularly those where we have areas of stress in terms of the need for seat availability for either popular courses or courses that are required in the general education curriculum. And within that group, also we have our orientation and transition staff. We have University Advising. We have my supervisor, who is the Vice Provost for Student Academic Success and Enrollment Management. And so we all work together collectively as a team to tackle the schedule, and that's a great thing we have. We have a working calendar that pretty much tells us when things should be happening, right, and if we follow that calendar correctly, then we stay in sync, and it keeps our stakeholders informed of the process. At the same time we are working through the challenges of like, we had increased enrollment this year by about 202 50 students, which, you know, you do 15 hours time. That many students. It's a lot of classes, right? But we're able to work with units to stand up classes, you know, at the last minute, when we needed them, because majors increased. And our academic resources team has been really incredible with financial resources to hire adjuncts or to increase the availability of class space and stuff like that. So it's a it's a will that works. We're still all in it, but we seem to be able to get every student in at least 12 to 15 hours coming in.

Matt Markin  
And for those are just hearing about James Madison University. How would you describe your institution?

Quentin Alexander  
I would say that for the first time in my academic career, I feel like I'm on a college campus again. Not that the other places were not, but this feels like a real college environment, very student centered approach. We sit in the Shenandoah Valley, so the university surrounded by mountains. It's very it's beautiful. We have two, two sides of campus, East Campus and West Campus, which is divided by i 81 interstate 8181 our what side of campus is more of our liberal arts education, General Studies, the other is more the technical side, STEM related majors our rec center, it's a beautiful campus. Is absolutely just stunning. You stand outside, you get mountain views all around, very vibrant student population. Think the biggest change for me is that I think that for the first time in my academic career, working with, colleagues, across all partner partners who are really student focused. You know, everything is very, very student focused. Rarely do I run into an incident where I see someone's personal agenda coming in, the students always at the center. So that's a good feel, and that's how we get things done. Is that, when it comes down to it, if they're disagreements about things that comes back to what's best for the student, and that's really powerful.

Matt Markin  
Now, of course, this episode that we're recording is coming off the heels of the NACADA annual conference in Orlando, which you got to attend. What was your experience at the annual conference? 

Speaker 1  
I think the annual conference was really nice this year. First of all, is in Orlando. And you know, who doesn't want to be in Orlando at the time of the year when the seasons are changing, and it's like 50 degrees back home and it's like 90 degrees in Orlando. So that was great. But I think for the first time since the pandemic, I felt like, you know, the annual conference is back where it was. Attendance was up. The ability to offer virtual virtual attendance was great. The number of sessions was incredible. And that's felt this energy that that felt in a while at annual conference since the pandemic. So that was great. A lot of reconnecting with people, and a lot of great sessions for professional development, I was able to, you know, participate in a pre conference workshop with four other colleagues, and I'm going to talk about that, that session today, and it was well attended. But I also, I think one of the sessions that stood out to me the most, because of the work I'm doing on my campus, was was Arizona State University, and how they retooled their first year advising program to meet the needs of students based on student learning outcomes and several other strategies they put together and see their steady growth in retention over a five year period was incredible. So I got to go to that session, meet with those folks, talk with them. We're gonna probably do some future consultation. But that was my big takeaway, was, Wow, we have all of the components that they have. So how can, how might we reimagine our first year advising program so that students are really doing as we say, learning from Academic Advising and not just going through the motions.

Matt Markin  
And then you were talking about a pre conference that you did with some colleagues. Can you share a little bit more about that?

Quentin Alexander  
Yeah. So I have a number of colleagues that I work with all the time. There was lots Lee nibs at Florida Gulf Coast University, Erica Brown-Meredith at Longwood University, Shantalea Johns at Wayne State and then my Director of Advising at James Madison University and Marquis McGee. And all of us are consistently talking about how to take care of ourselves, right? How do we do the job that we do where we're constantly taking care of other people, particularly in the face of the traumas that have happened recently over the past couple of years, without becoming apathetic about doing that. That's what compassion fatigue is about, right? And how do we take care of ourselves during these traumatic events? But also, how do we recognize the difference between burnout and compassion fatigue. Like I said, I've had a recent job transition, and I wonder, if you know, the nine years I taught as a professor and dealing with the things that I dealt with, I'm pretty sure I experienced compassion fatigue as well as burnout, and I transitioned into an administrative role, and you still feel those sort of, those sort of things that because of my mental health background, I'm aware of being able to recognize that as you know, as as does my colleagues. And so to be able to do that and recognize where you are to do something about it is pretty powerful. We also understand that not everyone has that skill set or that background. So here's a space where counseling and social work and advising intersect, right? How do we take care of ourselves while we're constantly taking care of others? I mean, you and I've talked about this a lot, right? Like, Yep, it's 10 o'clock at night and we're still trying to work on student schedules or try to work out the situation for a student. What do we should be taking care of ourselves? So we talked a lot about that. I'll go over that in the session objectives. But that also was about we gave a toolkit of things that advisors could do to de stress themselves or to recognize what they're actually experiencing compassion fatigue or burnout, and how to distinguish between those.

Matt Markin  
So what were some of the objectives?

Quentin Alexander  
So one was just to be able to get people to articulate the meaning of trauma, burnout and compassion fatigue. They can't, you know, we don't be trauma. There's several types of traumas we could experience physical trauma, emotional trauma, environmental trauma, and we all experienced the environmental trauma of covid, right, a factor that we had no control over, that was environmental throughout our nation that caused a lot of emotional trauma, caused a lot of physical trauma. We dealt with a lot of death. We dealt with a lot of people being afraid all the time, students who their financial situations were really heightened during this time and eliminated. We realized that we had students who were homeless. We realized a lot of things that were already there, but this trauma tended to bring that out. And so being able to articulate, you know, what is trauma, what is burnout, what is compassion fatigue? And statistics between those but also we talked about, how do you process the risk factors for compassion fatigue and burnout, right? How do you understand where you are? How do you identify those signs in your own daily work that where trauma can induce burnout or compassion fatigue, we also be able to identify events at work that trigger trauma response, that facilitate burnout and encourages compassion fatigue. So we often experience trauma in the work environment, and trauma can be related to. Things such as a boss who was a bully. It could be that you've been trying to get funding forever for stuff to work with students, and now you're under that rope and it's just not working. So you either continue with that work and you enter into burnout or compassion. Fatigue becomes a real thing because you continue to work with those students with limited resources, therefore it begins to wear on you and your emotional being, and that has an impact on how you work with students like you start apathetic towards them, start reading it, working with them. And this is ever ending cycle. And then we talk about some techniques that relieve symptoms of trauma and burnout capacity. What can you do on a daily basis that may take five minutes in your office to do just to keep up with your own mental health during this process?

Matt Markin  
What would you say like for advisors, like helping them to identify like characteristics of traumas or a traumatic event?

Quentin Alexander  
So there are a lot of things that can happen with traumatic events and compassion fatigue, trauma often induces feelings of depression. So not depression, but just feelings of depression, right? It's where you may feel sad for a pretty, pretty long period of time you feel hopeless. Trauma can bring on past traumas as well, and trigger those lack of interest in things you used to have interest in loss of control, because you don't have control of what's happening. And so trauma can manifest, manifest itself in multiple ways, trying to think in terms of traumatic events. So the thing about covid, covid was, was a traumatic event, right? So think about what you went through personally during that time. People were scared. That led to a lot of fatigue, because you were constantly, you know, emotionally, thinking about what could happen if I even go to the grocery store, right? You couple that with caring for students who may not have the resources at home, but even those who have the resources. And the fact that we had to switch to this world that was virtual, where we could reach out and touch our students and help them, we had to give them all virtual care, and that could be really, really tiring and exhausting on the brain and the body that has physical, emotional implications for us all.

Matt Markin  
I guess leading with that too. You know, with compassion fatigue. I know we've talked about before how, you know, some people might confuse compassion fatigue with the burnout, and a lot of this can lead to burnout. So why do you suppose there is some of that confusion?

Quentin Alexander  
So I think because compassion, fatigue has a traumatic component to it, burnout does not necessarily have a traumatic component to it. Burnout could be that you've been at this job for a long time and you're spinning your wheels and nothing's getting done. You don't like the people you work with the so eventually you just your body gets physically tired of dealing with the emotional aspect of all the discontent your work, which can lead to burnout. I experienced that when I was a public school teacher. I taught middle school, elementary school for three years, and I taught middle school for 10 years. And in those last 10 years, I realized I had a gradual sort of burnout phase going on, because, to be quite honest, I didn't like a lot of the people I worked with because they didn't like children. So I was like, why are you in education? So it's constantly dealing with that environment. It was a very negative environment, also where it was very student centered, and I was very student centered. So eventually I burned out. But I think I also experienced compassion fatigue, because I work with a group of students who were not doing well in the school system, was my job to make sure they did well so they were done with a lot of environmental trauma, right? These are students who had limited income. They lived in poor neighborhoods. They experienced a lot of violence in their neighborhood, some of them abuse at home and things that nature. So working with those students to work through those traumas sort of induced a lot of issues for me in terms of, Wow, I don't know if I can get up and go to school to hear one more story or work with one more student, because I don't have the resources to do it right. And so I think I eventually experienced compassion fatigue, and at the time I recognized it. I didn't recognize what it was. I didn't know what compassion fatigue was there, but I did realize that something was happening that was not healthy for me, and I chose to leave public education for that reason, and to go back and get a degree, a degree of counseling. And then I started to learn about compassion fatigue. So if you think about compassion fatigue. One way I can describe it is when you feel you have like nothing left to give in terms of life outside of work, and you just don't have the energy to change that dynamic you you need outside help. A lot of times, some people throw themselves even more fully into their work. Okay, so. Does that sound like advising in hope of reconnecting and fixing the problem? But by doing this every day, right? You start to self isolate more because you have so much to do, and you eliminate self care and eliminate self care activities like exercise, socialization, meditation, relaxation, those are things we don't do, right? I know that sometimes coming into the work and home environment and you're bringing work with you because you feel like you need to get it done, because you take care of the students, well, that has an impact on what's happening at home. So you don't take time to do things like exercise or go to the spot, have a get a massage, or socialize with people that you socialize with, or meditate or relax or run or whatever you do to relax. So this could be, this could have a like, a huge impact on your body and what it feels like, I would say, I want to talk about some signs of compassion fatigue, right? So it can affect, affect you in many ways. Emotionally, you can become very angered, irritable, have this sense of hopelessness. Physically, you can experience headaches, pains in your body. It could even induce hypertension, high blood pressure. Cognitively, with your brain, you know your ability to concentrate becomes more difficult, so daily tasks that you do with your job could become inhibited because of this capacity fatigue that you're experiencing. This is what I see in a lot of our advisors, a lot of self blame. They blame themselves for something that could happen for a student because they're taking on that sort of emotional trauma that's that's happening with that student, and then behaviorally, unfortunately, have some things that happen, such as your substance use, substance abuse, some of the things we may see at work chronic lateness, that is that resistance to walking into that environment, because You know what you're going to feel, and a lack of joy. And the last two I could talk about in terms of my last few years as a professor. I because I taught graduate school, I was there on campus two days a week, but I worked with a group of undergraduate students also, so I was there four days a week. I wanted to be there at the beginning, and as I started to experience burnout and the capacity fatigue because of working with these students and not having the resources to feel as if the university didn't really care about this particular population. There was a point where I was like, You know what? I'm not going to be on another committee. I'm not gonna do anything else for this institution. I'm gonna show up for work so I won't show up 10 minutes before class or for my office hours, for my graduate students, I would show up for my undergraduate students. I worked with this program, and then I left. So the amount of time I spent on campus became less and less and less. And though I was not late, because as a professor, you kind of have your own schedule, I didn't put in the type of time I put in before. I was just not getting any joy for being in that environment and that I knew at that point that was, that was, that was compassion fatigue. I was just exhausted. So yeah, that that's a lot of compassion fatigue. I'm thinking that maybe some of our advisor partners out there may be, maybe are identifying with what this feels like we all probably experienced compassion fatigue during the pandemic. Have not realized it, and are still in that state. And so hopefully, some of the things I talk about today, some of the suggestions I give, can help people to at least find resources to help them. 

Matt Markin  
I guess with your experience, I guess your advice for this question, you know, you might have someone listen to this and thinking, Yes, I think I identify that I have experienced it. Maybe are experiencing it right now. They're also thinking about their workload. They're also thinking about like, you know, I try not to take work home, but I feel like I have to, because if I don't, then just gonna pile up when I get back to the office, you know. And so you're matching like meditation, maybe even journaling, breathing activities, things like that. Sometimes the hardest part is actually just starting to do it, you know. So what's your advice with helping an advisor, just to get, you know, just to attempt at it?

Quentin Alexander  
That's fantastic, I think. So there are five ways to compact combat capacity that would talk about response to that. I think the first thing is just to simply ask for help. As advisors are used to always helping, so we're not necessarily used to ask for help for ourselves. We often ask for help for our students, but everyone has a set of friends or a circle of support around them that is taught to say, this is the way I'm feeling. I'm not sure what this is, but I'm just exhausted, right? Those friends will often give you, yes, those friends probably have seen it already. That's the first thing, right? So. So they're often going to give you some pretty good, supportive advice, or they'll basically think such as, say, let's take a walk. For me, it's like, let's talk every morning on your way to work, let's talk about some of these you're experiencing, and let's talk through them and figure out how we can work through this together. One thing that a lot of people avoid because the stigma in society is actually accessing counseling and therapy. It could be a great thing. We used to go in and talk with someone about what's your experience and how it's impacting you as an individual, and how you're functioning. It doesn't mean you have any mental illness. I think a lot of people think that, Oh, if you see a counselor or therapist, you have a mental illness. No therapists of mental illness, we deal with just everyday life situations, and how do you work through those situations? It could be about how you interact with your friends. How do you do things such as take care of yourself? How do you enhance your relationship by establishing what I'm going to talk about next, which is boundaries, right? So that next thing is to establish boundaries, right? Learn how to say things such as, no thanks. That's hard for us, right? No thanks. I can't be on that committee, and this is why, or I'm not taking on new things now, right? We could probably pull out a sheet of paper and list about 15 things that we're doing currently. So when it comes along, this sounds really good. I want to do it, and I'm exhausted and I don't know how to say no. So I don't know how to say things such as, I'm not taking on new things maybe later, or things like that. Doesn't work for me right now. I've said that for committees, I will set boundaries and say I will ask myself, first of all, because he was as an administration or as an advisor, you're asked to build multiple committees, right? I step back. I think, how does this benefit me professionally? And if it benefits me professionally on a scale of seven to 10 and I have the capacity, I'll say yes, I'd be glad to if I don't, I say I can't take that on right now. But how about next year when someone rotates off the committee? Approach me again. Let's talk about it then right now. Just have too much on my plate. So this establishing boundaries is really just being honest with ourselves, you can't do everything. A lot of what we don't do is practice self compassion. I think we tried to learn how to do this during the pandemic, but simple things such as writing in a journey journal every day. Okay, a worrying journal. Those are the best kind of worrying journals. What things are you worried about? Okay, get up in your journal, then go back into the day and read that journal for about five minutes to see if those are actual really worries, or they're things that just because you're experiencing compassion fatigue or burnout, they just seem to be more exacerbated than what they actually are. I'm talking about a self soothing kit that's grounded in the five senses, right, so your sight, sounds, smell, feel and taste, right? So do things that are self soothing for you, for example. And this may seem kind of weird that it's that it's not so soothing, but it is, I'll be recently, we had to put down our two dogs we had for another 10 years. Well, that was very emotionally driving, but what I did was we decided to put together a scrapbook of all the photos we had. So that was something I was able to do that dealt with sight. I could see the pictures. I could take care of myself. I could be emotional about it, not be emotional and have those bound to a books. That's one thing I did, listening to a relaxing playlist. Okay, and relaxing for some people may be different. Here relaxing your own jazz or soft soft rock or whatever. No other way the work without talking about I put on some handbag and music skill. It's blaring in radio or for my playlist. And when I get to campus is often, I'm like, okay, ready to go, right? So those sorts of things. Simple thing is your office, I don't burn your office down, but sent to candles. What is the smell that smells good to you this time of the year is going to be the smell of things like Thanksgiving or pumpkin spice, or what it smells of fall, right? Or maybe that you need smells of spring, whatever it is that you need, lavender is a soothing smell. So those sorts of things, the smell of fresh linen and candles is a soothing smell. Some people will need to do things physically. So the little widgets that people live with a lot, those could be nice, so things that can help you, like, with your sense of feel right. And then the last thing, and this is always my favorite, is taste right. What things are physically tasteful to you? Is it chocolate? Is it a latte? Is it your favorite piece of candy? What is it that that brings you back into this sort of practice of self compassion we don't take care of ourselves a lot, then another thing will be to engage in mindful caregiving, right? We care for these students on a daily. Basis. We care for our partners on a daily basis, but we don't care for ourselves. So a lot of times, you have to let go of everything for if it's just for five minutes, to give yourself permission to be happy, for you, to be at peace, to be safe, to be filled with like, the sort of loving presence. And a lot of times, because I live in an area where I'm close to the mountains, I'll just get the car and I'll just drive through the mountains and sit there and stare and look at the mountains, or I'll take the dog for a walk on a trail and do that. Those are all fun things, and sometimes just knowing what to say, right? And it goes back to those things such as, yep, yep, not taking on anything else, or saying to yourself, you know what? You really need to take care of yourself. So what sort of things are you going to do in the mornings? I get up, always have my coffee. But there's one thing I could do. We have this nice rooftop terrace that overlooks the city, and it's very quiet up there. I'd never go up there during the mornings. I think, wow, I could actually do that. So that's one thing I just identified that I could do, is go upstairs, wipe the dew off the furniture and have a cup of coffee up there for 15 minutes by myself. So those are the types of things that people could do.

Matt Markin  
And then I want to go back to the being able to say no, because a lot of times we end up feeling guilty if we say no, and I think sometimes we end up wanting to then also give a reason why we're saying no, which then leads sometimes to the other person thinking they need to try to solve that, that reason we gave to maybe make us say yes. And so sometimes it's okay just not even to give a reason. Just say no, not at this time, but maybe next year.

Quentin Alexander  
Yeah, yeah. I think we have to give ourselves permission to do that. And a lot of times I just, you know, one question that came to us in the actual presentation was, well, what if you don't feel like you're in a position to say, No, like you're a new employee, your boss has been on you to do these things? You know that's where you could find a mentor or an advocate on your campus, right? Who do you go to? Who's the senior staff member that can help give you some support? They may actually know your supervisor, or they may have been in that situation themselves before they can give you advice, but find reaching out and use the resources that are right there at your fingertips. And it doesn't necessarily always have to be somebody. Have to be someone in your office. It can be someone that you just met during your orientation, onboarding on campus. That's who I go to right now. My boss is fantastic. I go to him about a lot of things, but there was one professor, or he's an Associate Provost, also that I go to all the time and talk to about things, because he was the first one that came up and introduced themselves. We found out we had some things in common, and it was pretty cool. So I was like, hey, you know, I just think about this. And he goes, Yeah, maybe not. You tell them no, you know. And so I get that permission to say no, and he will tell me how to navigate saying no to that person, because he has an institutional history, right? So a lot of times it's access to your resources that are around you to help you to resist saying yes all the time. 

Matt Markin  
Well, excellent advice, Quentin, but we are at time. I wish we could talk longer. I think we'll have to have have you on in future episodes, of course, but Quinn, I appreciate you doing this, especially coming off the heels of the annual conference. You got a lot going on at your institution with a role, but I always appreciate you taking time for me, especially for the podcast.

Quentin Alexander  
Well, thank you. And I hope that you know anyone listening to this has gotten something out of it. And then, of course, you know, I don't know how you would do this on the actual podcast, but they can always contact me for resources, but we can work that out later. But yeah, thank you for having me. It's been a just been two years, I think two or three years, it's great to be back, and hopefully we can do some additional episodes of this.