Guiding Students (and Yourself) in Finding Meaning - Adventures in Advising

In Ep. 84, we interview Ryan Braeger, assistant dean for advising and student development at Saint Michael’s College, about faculty lead advising, opportunities in publications, and helping students invest in the exploration of their meaning through logotherapy.

We also hear from Stefani Schrader from NACADA's Executive Office about submitting a proposal for the NACADA Region Conferences! 

• Writing a Conference Proposal
• Generating Proposal Ideas

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hello and welcome back to the adventures in advising podcast. This is Matt Markin, and it's episode 84 and at the recording of this episode is the middle of September, and that means if you're planning to submit a proposal to one of the Nakata regional conferences, that deadline is fast approaching. So before we get to our interview with Ryan brager, we have a special guest from the NACADA executive office, and that is StefaniSchrader, program and project associate for the regions. Stefani, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 1  
Hi. I'm so excited to be here. I'm a big fan of you, and the podcast.

Matt Markin  
Appreciate that, and it's great to see you as always. And can you tell listeners a little bit about yourself? It's always nice to have staff from the executive office join us for the podcast.

Stefani Schrader  
Yes, of course. So like you mentioned, I help work in the region division as a program and project associate. So that just means I help with all of the region initiatives, including help plan our region conferences.

Matt Markin  
And not just do it. I mean, 10 regions that you're working on year round.

Stefani Schrader  
Well said, Yeah, we're a little busy, but it's fun. 

Matt Markin  
Yes, absolutely. So tell us about Nakata region conferences. And when is this proposal submission deadline? 

Stefani Schrader  
Let's start with that deadline, and I will repeat it for your listeners. It's Wednesday, September 27 and most of the things here close at central time. So it'll be 1159 central time is when you want to get proposal in. So our region conferences do happen every year, like you mentioned. We have 10 regions that comprise of membership and and non members throughout the US and its territories and Canada, but we also have global members who come and enjoy those conferences also. So every year, based on those geographical areas, the regions will host their conference. And like I said, before Wednesday, September 27 is our deadline to get those proposal submissions in.

Matt Markin  
And just like you mentioned, 11:59pm Central, because I know sometimes, you know, I'm on the West Coast, so when I think, Oh, the deadline is at the end of the day, it's like, oh, it's usually two hours earlier.

Stefani Schrader  
Thank you for mentioning that. 

Matt Markin  
What types of proposals or presentations are there? Because, you know, I think for maybe someone who's new and is like, well, I want to present, but what are my options?

Stefani Schrader  
Definitely, so we primarily have three different session types. We have our pre conference workshops. Those happen usually the day before the conference or on the first full day of the conference. They are they're more in depth, they're longer sessions. They're either two hour or three hour sessions. Highly participatory members will come away with having had great discussion based on that session. Topic. Concurrent sessions is another type, and those kind of those are the majority of our session types. They are one hour and those can either be lecture based, so one or two people giving more of a traditional presentation and then followed by a Q and A at the end, or we have panel concurrent sessions. And so that's a great way to collaborate with colleagues. Also, I like to plug that panel discussions are a great way for first time presenters to get experience, and you'll have support there with you. And those, those are more discussion based, and still involve question and answer with the attendees. And then we have our poster sessions, and those are kind of the traditional bulletin board type presentations. A lot of times, presenters will share their research, and usually they all happen in one room, and so attendees can mix and mingle and talk to the presenters about their research. So those are kind of our three main types.

Matt Markin  
And I will say, you know, having done poster sessions before, I will say those are nice because they are informal. So, you know, a lot of times, you know, you have people walking by, you might be able to have, like, short conversations, more one on one second. It's a little bit more personal. And then all the information is on the board as well. So if someone misses out on hearing what you're saying, they can always check out the board and then wait their turn and then talk to you, right? I guess, connected to that. And you know, from your point of view, why should someone submit a proposal, and you know, what are the benefits from a maybe from a presenter or an attendee point of view?

Stefani Schrader  
So these region conferences really do rely on the expertise of its attendees and its members to help drive that content. There are, as you know, there's. A diversity of issues within each region, and then within the globe, of advising and so those region conferences are a great way to kind of focus in on those, those successes and challenges of that region. So it's really important when we think of the diversity of both of those challenges and successes within the field of advising and as far as presenters, what they can get out of it? It's, it's a really rewarding way to strengthen your professional development, as well as get some some good feedback on maybe certain research you've you've done within your work, some challenges maybe you want to work through and get some feedback on, and then also to celebrate your successes. As an advisor, if you have programming that's worked really great for your institution, this is a wonderful way to share that with with members across the globe.

Matt Markin  
And let's say someone's like, hey, it's my first time working on a proposal. Maybe I'm a little nervous to do it. Would you say it's easy to do? Is there any criteria or tips for writing a proposal?

Stefani Schrader  
Yes. So firstly, don't be nervous. One thing I love about working with these advisors is that they are very supportive of each other and will always be willing to help you if you have questions. So reach out to colleagues and reach out to the executive office. We're more than willing to help you. Also, if you go to the NACADA website and go to your region's website on that homepage there, there's a module with some region talks that regions have put together, and many have highlighted how to put together a successful proposal. And the recordings are in that module, and they feature former presenters, some that have been won the Best of region presentations. So they really are great resources to see how, how does this come together in terms of submitting a successful proposal. And then another region has included a really handy workbook that will really help you brainstorm some topics and how you work through writing that narrative to enter into that proposal submission portal, to give a good glimpse of what your presentation is all about.

Matt Markin  
Thank you. And am I allowed to submit or is anyone allowed to submit a proposal for with multiple presenters or panelists on it?

Stefani Schrader  
Absolutely. So you do not have to be a NACADA member to be a presenter at a region conference. So let's start there. We welcome any advisor or faculty or administrators. We also really value that experience as well. Definitely enter more than one proposal you have. You're an expert in more than one topic, so we want to hear about all of your experience, and we certainly would love for you to collaborate with people and form a panel presentation so you could, you could submit a pre conference workshop, a concurrent panel session, a concurrent lecture session, and even a poster. Go for it. There's nothing wrong with entering more than one proposal. 

Matt Markin  
If someone was wanting to submit a proposal, but maybe they're saying they're from region two, but they really want to attend a different conference and present there. Are they allowed to submit to multiple regions. Or can they only submit to the region that their specific region conference is at? 

Stefani Schrader  
We absolutely welcome people to not only attend different region conferences, but present at those sometimes it works out that just geographically, you might be closer to a different region conference than your own home region. So don't let that scare you away from attending a different region conference, and especially submitting a proposal for that region conference, because you may have some some some great research and programming that you've worked through in your region that would really benefit a different region. So yes, please consider from entering a proposal for a different region, yeah. 

Matt Markin  
And last question I have for you is, you know, you have the region conferences. There's the annual conferences. What would you say? Like, the differences are between those?

Stefani Schrader  
So our annual conference, as you know, as a former co chair there, it's, it's kind of our biggest yearly endeavor. Usually around 3000 people attend. It's a big deal. And then our region conferences are also a big deal, but they're more intimate. Usually about 300 to 500 people attend those based on the size of that region. The sessions are smaller. Like I said, it does feel a little bit more intimate. It's a great way for first timers, if you're a new advisor, to get involved in attending conferences and to get involved in NACADA. And it's also a great way, if you're a new presenter, to get some experience and present at a region conference, and then maybe someday move on to to the big time at the annual conference.

Matt Markin  
That's, yeah, I agree. I mean, it's like, you have the same quality sessions, but very smaller, and, like you said, very intimate. And I would say, Yeah, too. I enjoy, I think, definitely at the region level. Meet a lot of those within your region, meet a few outside of your region, but be able to have a lot of those conversations and networking opportunities in that smaller environment.

Stefani Schrader  
Absolutely and and I do just want to say, even if you decide that this isn't the year to submit a proposal, think about it. For next year, registration for the conferences will open November 1, so be on the lookout and register early. Attend, just like you said. Network. Have fun, and hopefully you'll feel invigorated for the next year. 

Matt Markin  
Thank you so much Stephanie for letting us know about the region. Conferences, proposal submissions, it's a fantastic opportunity. I can vouch for that, and please submit your proposal by September 27 11:59pm, Central Time. Take a look at the nacado website. We'll also include some of those links in our show notes. But thank you again, Stefani.

Stefani Schrader  
Of course. Thank you so much, Matt. 

Matt Markin  
Thanks again, Stepfani, for letting us know about the NACADA region conferences. And now onto our interview with Ryan Braeger. Ryan is currently working as the Assistant Dean for advising and student development at St Michael's College, a private Roman Catholic liberal arts college just outside of Burlington Vermont before arriving at St Michael's, Ryan began his advising career at Utah State University, where for six years he worked as an academic advisor and program coordinator within the exploratory Advising Center. Ryan has presented research on academic advising, theory, student programming and data analysis evaluation techniques at many Nakata and Utah Advising Association conferences over the past decade. Ryan is an alumnus of Utah State University and Harvard University Graduate School of Education, Ryan, welcome to the podcast.

Ryan Braeger  
Perfect. Yeah. Hi. Thanks for having me.

Matt Markin  
And we were just talking earlier that we may have met four years ago at the NACADA international conference in Belgium. Long time ago, it seems like, with the pandemic, but pretty sure that that we interacted at some point, because you also were presenting there. But to kind of expand upon your bio, can you tell us a little bit about your journey, your path into higher ed, and where you're currently at? 

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, definitely. So yeah, this is my ninth fall semester in advising, which is kind of hard to believe, does not feel like it's been nine years. And really, I think when I started, didn't expect there to be nine years of advising. Early on in my own education, the goal was kind of established to go to law school. I think that my earliest remembrance of having that goal was in ninth grade. It was like in junior high, we read To Kill a Mockingbird, and I remember thinking like Atticus, Finch had it right, like he lived a good life. He was doing good work. And, you know, who doesn't want to be like that? And, you know, during a back to school night, a counselor was like, Well, if you love that book, you should think about the law also kind of interesting prelude into advising, right? Because this, this person could have easily said, that's so cool. You love literature. Let's talk about books, right? Let's talk about being an English major and more literature. And that really would have changed everything early on for me. But I think law was the advice, and it was so wonderful to have a plan, and so law it was. And everyone in my life kind of rallied around that, that common goal, I was getting a John Grisham every year for Christmas from my grandmother, and to her credit, I still do right. John Grisham keeps writing them and I keep getting them as a gift. But really, seven years into my education, I arrived to law school and just had an incredibly frustrating year, right? I had uprooted from home. I was in, I was in Oregon. Had never visited before, never had a chance to see the school. And the goal up to that point was always get into law school, and I got in, and I used to tell my students, early in my advising career, that the tragedy of my life was that I didn't die the day after my law school acceptance letter, because it would have been this lovely book. Yet, right? I had this impossible goal. I persevered. I got in and then that's a wrap, right? Who cares about what happens after you get into law school? But it turns out, you have to actually want to be a lawyer, but you have to actually want to be in law school, and that was never the goal, right? The goal was always, that's the tallest mountain I can think of, right? It was a it was a misaligned ambition of saying, I bet you I can't do that, so I'm going to prove to myself that I can. So I was surrounded by this amazing, talented group of of lawyers who were kind and compassionate and smart and ambitious. And my big secret that whole first year was that I didn't really like anything that I was doing during the day. So I always, you know, I kind of started my own exploration. Year seven was like, Okay, now that I've demonstrated that I could go to law school, what do I actually want to. Do with my life. That's what kind of catapulted me into advising. Accidentally, there was a professor from my undergraduate degree who reached out heard that I wasn't doing well, said, take this job. You'll do it for a year. You'll figure out your life. We'll come up with a new plan. And you know, nine years later, I'm still in advising.

Matt Markin  
You know you're talking about, like, if it once you got into law school, if that was it, like, I can see a inspirational movie being made, and then they the ending is, you got into law school, that was the goal, and then the credits roll, and then there you go. But it's always what happened afterwards. 

Ryan Braeger  
Or you win the big case, or you graduate from your law program. The movie always ends before the work stops. You know you can win the big case, but you have to love it enough to want another case after you win the big one, right? And you can't fake it, though, that my takeaway is that you really can't pretend to be passionate about something that you don't care for forever, and you can pretend for five years. You can maybe pretend for 20 but the thought of pretending for 55 years was ultimately just it was too heavy, right? So I put up the white flag and said, I'm in the I'm in the wrong space, right? Someone get me out of this space.

Matt Markin  
And then now you're at St Michael's College. So in the bio to mention that it's a private Roman Catholic College. Can you talk a little bit more about how you would describe your institution? For those that might be interested to learn more about St Michael's?

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, I mean, a couple of the unique things that brought me to Vermont, because a big leap. I'm originally from Utah. The majority of my career has been in Utah in some capacity, or thinking about Utah advising. But what I really found interesting about St Michael's is they're very like purpose forward. And so when you think about how the institution is structured, there's actually a center for purposeful learning here on campus, and students are introduced to this idea on day one, that you're here to figure out how to put this to use, for the betterment of others, for a cause that you care about, to impact something other than yourself in a positive way. And I thought that was really intriguing, because that's always been a part of the work that I do, but it's never been the part that's on the poster right or the part that's on the website. It's the it's the extra part that I try to convince students of, after we talk about classes and grades and career opportunities, it's like, Oh, and make sure that your life is meaningful, kind of reminding them that that's the goal I love, that it's just right there, out in the open, that you need. You're here to find something meaningful, right? You're here to live what, what could be considered a good life. But how do you choose to define that? How do you know how to define that? It's such a such a big question. The other unique thing is, like other smaller liberal arts schools, st Mike's does use a faculty led advising model, and I thought that was really intriguing, because I've made it a point to see lots of different models during my advising career, and they're all really different as far as, like, what does the day to day practical level of advising look like? And so I was really excited to jump into my current role, which is really to help coordinate and assist a team of 93 faculty advisors administer that advising out to students throughout the year. 

Matt Markin  
And I definitely want to come back to the faculty led advising. But you know, you touched upon students finding meaning. And I know a lot of your your interest and presentations have revolved around that and and more. So I guess with like, logo therapy that you've presented on self reflection, self discovery, I think you had presented once about, like, kind of, across the globe, the high number of students that are experiencing this crisis of meaninglessness, and I guess, from like, an advisor standpoint, you know, or actually, before I get to that, can you talk about, like, what logo therapy is?

Ryan Braeger  
Oh, yeah, totally Yeah. So early on in my advising career, it's probably my first annual conference. So that first year of advising, back in 2014 I had a chance to jump into the conference circuit just for the first time, to see what it was and really again, no expectations that whole first year of like, what is advising, I never met with my advisor. Think I saw them twice, right? Once as an incoming transfer student, to get a hold lifted, and then wants to get my graduate application signed right. And remember thinking like, Who is this person who needs to sign my packet? But it was the the conferences have had such a huge impact on my longevity as an advisor. But I was introduced to man Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl at the annual conference in Vegas. This must have been like fall 2015 Yeah. I think it was the Oh yeah. It was yeah, 2015 Yeah, right. What a weird setting to be introduced to this book. Um, wandered into this session standing room only. I mean, I was like in the far, far back, and they played a video of one of Victor Frankl's old lectures. And. And I was just hooked. I was like, What is this thing? Because I was still trying to figure out, like, how do I What is my advising practice anchored on? Like, what is my individual approach to doing this that feels authentic to me in a way that's still helpful to my students? Because the first year is a lot of just copying what you're seeing around you, right? But it feels like that. Like, this is me advising as Vicky. This is me advising as Mark. This is me advising, right? This is my best interpretation of that person I just shadowed, and it doesn't feel very good. And the student also knows that what I'm doing feels very like, stilted and structured and like, I don't inspire a lot of confidence, right? So I was kind of on the lookout for, what's that thing that gives me a voice, or what's a what's a framework that's really going to work for me and resonate. And it was that book. And so I watched, you know, that presentation. I went up at the end of the session, got the book recommendation, ran home and read it, and was like, Okay, I think there's some material here that I can use, and really just using really broad strokes, right? I'm not going to get into all of the all the textual work of Frankel, but his big claim is that you always have meaning. Your life is inherently meaningful, but it's up to you to find out what that meaning is, right? This idea that we each have a unique meaning that's ours to find. And then if we do locate that, and we do live through it, and base our decisions from that source, we tend to have more success and happiness and well being because we found that thing. Right now, a lot of other existential philosophers would debate whether or not it's just out there to go fine, right? But what a lovely message for an incoming first year students and for a new advisor to say, let's philosophically presume that the meaning is there, and our task is then to go and locate it, and then really talk about, how do we know if we found it? How do we know if this is what we're looking at? But that, for the first time, really gave me a framework for the work to say, aside from the grades, aside from extracurriculars, aside from the homesickness and the terrible diet and all those things that make up a week, reminding them that you're also here in search for this meaningfulness, that you're here to build a life that feels authentic To you, and that's why you have to have access to all this choice. Right? For Frankl, autonomy is the thing that allows us to have meaning. So if we have the freedom, then we can have the responsibility of those choices. But it really rests on that autonomy. But if I'm not given a choice, and I'm not able to search for my own sense of meaning. I can't be held responsible for the tasks assigned to me, because they're not mine, right? But I might spend my whole life just rebelling against what's been the task to me, and I was so good at fighting the man in high school, I did so many things to hurt my own chances for success. It was. It was more important, you know, to get the F on the test, because you refuse to take it even though you studied, than it was to take the test and and any because it didn't feel like I opted in. It felt like my only choice was to opt out. But yeah, for Frankel, what a huge piece is to say, we know we have to have this. We know it's out there. We also know that if it's missing in our life, we're going to feel that existential vacuum. We're going to start asking, what is the meaning of my life? It's the best question you could ever ask. It's what makes you a human, that ability to ask that question, and sometimes it's such a daunting task, and you don't have the help that you need, that you run towards escapism, right? There's lots of things we can do to avoid answering that question, and that also helps provide a lens for working with students like on probation or suspension. Those academic problems rarely had academic causes. There was something else going on. And I got to see firsthand for a number of years, that when the exploratory work was in those suspension appointments, when you're working with those students trying to get back to good standing, their performance academically, went up the more you invested in the exploration, meaning work. And that was really, I think, proof positive for me that, okay, this book isn't just a helpful lens with actually doing helpful things.

Matt Markin  
But I can think of advisors kind of thinking like, that's great. I want to be able to have those meaningful conversations with my students, but I just have half an hour here and there, possibly with students. You know, it seems like we have so many other things to talk about, any tips. You might quick tips. You might be able to share tools that can help advisors assist their students?

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, it's a great question. I feel that time crunch too, right? No matter what model of advising you're using, usually, the common theme is, I don't have enough time. And if you're a small school, it's because you might not have the advising team the size. That you need, right? If you're I've been a part of professional advising teams that consist of four or five members, and so a smaller campus still feels really busy. Been a part of groups that have a really large team, right? The exploratory center was a was a destination on its own, right? There's a lot of us in there meeting with 1000s of students, but it still felt like we didn't have enough time. I think my advice would be that don't see Guided Exploration as somehow being separate from the other things that you're talking about. It's not, it's not one of those things where it's compartmentalized. Right? To say, Oh, I wish we could schedule just for guided exploration. I love when that can happen, and I think students do like those opportunities, right? They'll gladly schedule an hour for guided exploration if you if you provide them that opportunity, but it's a mistake to see them as is completely distinct, right? If we're talking about a course revision, it's kind of a timely example, right? All of my life the last two weeks has just been course revisions in the add, drop deadline, that is exploration, right? That's really what an exploratory advisor is doing, is they're trying to teach subjective decision making, and those subjective decisions, that's a skill set, right, knowing how to make great personal choices that don't have a right or wrong answer, but are still forced decisions. You still have to decide something getting great at that is no different than learning a musical instrument or getting better at math or learning a world language. You need guided practice, and so those revisions are a part of that conversation. How do I know when to trust myself if I walk into a class the first week and everything is telling me, physically, I picked the wrong thing for myself, how do I build that intuition to trust what I'm feeling, or how do I trust myself to inquire further what's missing? Why am I feeling this way? Maybe I'm in the right space, but I'm going through some other things that this this course is inspiring within me, right? But all those conversations that can have an exploratory tone, if the advisor purposely integrates that into the conversation of saying, look, it's not just about your false schedule. It's about how do you know how to assess what you've built? What do we look for if we're talking about a strong schedule? Because I can't just grade it right? I can't say, Good job. You have a perfect schedule. I wouldn't even want to try to do that. I don't know what I would say, right? So part of this is teaching them how to self assess, right? That leads into bigger conversations about bigger choices. But it's the same conversation is, do the classes you have this semester have the potential to teach you something in addition to what's on the syllabus? You're not just taking this class for the content. You're not just taking this because it's a core requirement or a major requirement, this class has to have the ability to teach you something about yourself. Why am I in school? Who am I? Who am I becoming? What do I want for myself? That's the burden of these any choice that you make is its ability to reflect back onto you. So I guess my Yeah, hopefully that example helps. It's just kind of saying, like, look, I can help someone revise their schedule and just say, what do you need? Let's hop on the catalog. Let's get it done. But I can also say, while we're going on the catalog, while we're reviewing our options, talk to me about how these classes have felt, and talk to me about what you're hoping this class can teach you about yourself.

Matt Markin  
We're recording this in early September, and so for many of us on semester schools, we started, you know, one two or three weeks ago. So we have a new batch, cohort of students that that are attending, especially those that are first year students. I mean, right out of high school, a lot of what you're talking about is students kind of questioning a lot of things. You know, who am I? You know, why am I here? What I want to do with you having experience like with your exploratory Advising Center. You know, how important is it for students? Or, I guess, even, how hard is it for having students start question early on, versus kind of having, well, I was told by my parents, or, you know, I had this idea what this major is and what I want to do at my life, and then a year or two later, they're coming and going, Hey, I actually now I don't know what I want to do?

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, I mean, I think it's such a the exploration piece is so interesting, because you'll do basically anything you can to avoid not knowing and avoid not having a plan. And so a lot of the work of an advisor sometimes is just refusing to give someone something to do, right? Because I going back to the idea of Frankl, right? I can't provide someone a sense of me. I can give them tasks, I can keep them busy, I can stress them out. I can alleviate worry. I can shower them with gifts, right? I can do so many things, but I can't just say here's your sense of meaning. Enjoy it, right? That's something that is just off limits to an advisor. It's we're stopped within our capacity. Capacity to do that, but knowing that students crave a plan, like they want to know why they're in school. They want to make sure that their future plan is strong, that there's going to be good outcomes, that they're going to be okay. And so I always think that trajectory of a student in higher ed, right the whole four years, we kind of start in a place where our job is for students to believe in the system that we've created, right? We don't believe in the future yet. We don't believe in ourselves. But I believe that this institution is ready to help me, that they're not going to let me, you know, fall, they're not going to let me fail, that I can just lean into the institution itself. So as an advisor, that's my first goal. Is I assume my first year students need to believe in my ability to help and to provide, you know, structure and provide scaffolding to help them make great decisions. But then during their four years with me, I hope that we end up in a place where that belief in the system has been replaced in a faith in oneself, to the point where even if I disagree with a decision or we're at odds, that's okay. It doesn't create crisis, right? But I do think that exploration in general is in a weird spot. I think it's gone through a lot of changes in the nine years that I've done this. I think on an academic end, we've lost some of the curriculum that exploration benefited from, right like bigger general education inventories, the introduction of concurrent enrollment, advanced placement, International Baccalaureate credit. A lot of our students are actually kind of barreling through the gen ed before they ever arrive in college, and I know that that exploration isn't happening before they get here, but those classes are no longer a venue to aid in that exploration. At the same time that Gen Ed has shrunk, a lot of major programs like to be major forward, right? So it's not uncommon for them to have you take multiple major classes your first semester, and those major classes might also count for the core for the gen ed. And so that window of time where you were, you could almost the advisor, could almost just lean on, or rely on the gen ed to make sure some exploration was going to happen. I think that's less and less true, because we're asking them to declare before they arrive, they're coming in with 20 to 30 credits, and they're jumping into a major first thing. So it does feel like there's more collateral damage if they do change their mind earlier on than normal, because those credits might not follow them into their next area of interest.

Matt Markin  
How hard was it for you? Kind of switching gears, like going from you have your new job at St Michael's, so in Vermont, previously in Utah. How hard of it was it to make that decision?

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, it was. It was a tough one, because, I think for the same reasons why it's hard for students, right? I think what I what I've really appreciated about my advising practice over these years is that it's really mirrored my own personal development, right? I started in an exploratory center asking the same questions that my students were asking me, and it really did feel like we were authentically figuring out together what works and what didn't work. But when faced with a big decision like that, you lean on all those exploratory resources and tools that you share with your students, and so I found myself doing lots of list making and wise wandering maps and value deck sorts, and, you know, talking to friends and family. Yeah, it's just those big leaps, right? But I think it's similar to the conference experience. I think that at a certain point in any advisors career, you kind of outgrow the hallway that you're in. And so either the institution that you're at gives you some room to expand and to grow and to develop, or you have to, I mean, it was the saying you have to move out to move up. And sometimes it's not even that you want to move up. It's just that you want to start trying new things. And I think some advising cultures are really open to adapting and experimenting and trying lots of new stuff, but any advisor starts to have those well worn groups, there's a certain way that you handle October, and it works, and so you do it again next October, and it does become harder to want to do a big renovation, because there isn't necessarily a need other than just seeing if something else might work better. Kind of pushing yourself out there into the world forces you to say, Okay, this isn't I can't do the things I was doing last year at this time, from the different institution. And I have noticed that, which has been a really wonderful positive, is that when I switched from Utah State to Westminster University, I was little bit naive, because I had been, I've been at one institution my whole career, and so I felt like advising was kind of a linear trajectory where it's like, you assess where advising is at, and you work to improve it up to a shared right. Point of improvement, and everyone's headed the same direction for the same reasons, but you get to a new institution, and none of the things you built work because it's a different place, and the culture is different, and the students are there for different reasons, and the relationships you're forming are unique to those to those offices and those people who staff those positions. And it's really humbling, because you, you almost panic at first. You're like, I can't believe none of the things that I did my first six years are going to help me in year seven, right? Of course they do help you, but just, but you, it's just yeah, it's a huge surprise. And so again, coming here, at least I knew that, because I had done it before where it wasn't just showing up with a Mary Poppins bag, setting up camp and making everything the same as it was where you once were. It's really just saying, Okay, this is going to be different for me because, because it's different, yeah, really tough decision, and I did find myself, you know, really leaning on on the same tools that I recommend to to the students, but also, yeah, I'll say that it's hard to leave a team, right? I had, like, the best team at Westminster University, and we had gone through that shared model introducing it to campus together. It gives you pause to say, like, man, it's that community, right? That's really, I think, what if advising is going to be a 30 year career and not a three year career if we're going to put up with all the non linearity of the profession, right and be flexible, it's because of the community, the people that you go to work with, not necessarily you know the work that you're tasked with doing.

Matt Markin  
So right now, your role as Assistant Dean for advising and student development, you talked a little bit about the faculty kind of led advising and that being part of your role. What else is your role entail?

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. So in my current role, our office is going to work with any students who need additional support throughout this semester, so if they're at risk of maybe falling into academic probation in the future, or if there's an emergency during the term, our office is definitely one of those places that you can refer to if you're not sure what the referral is. I always tell my students that if you're not sure where to start, it's probably with me right. Part of my job is to help them activate that network of support and to find out what's possible on campus for my own advising population, I do work with exploratory students here at St Mike's. I also work with students who are working to regain good academic standing. So it's kind of a portfolio of my greatest hits, right when I was at Utah State, it was all about academic standing work and exploratory work. So it's fun to see that here too, those conversations. It's funny, the institutions are always very different, but I feel like the actual advising appointment itself has always felt familiar. No matter where I've been, students everywhere are going through something similar.

Matt Markin  
Sure, and kind of talking about the faculty, like the model that you have at St Michael's, was that something that was already in place, something that you created or tasked with continuing?

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah? So it was, yeah, they've run a faculty model here at St Mike's for long, as I am aware of. But this position is really designed to say, Okay, how do we improve that system? Right? And that kind of goes back to the idea of this non linearity, where not all advising models are progressing to the same endpoint. And I really love that about the profession, because it's not just about learning the best method for improvement and then just copy pasting it all across the country or all across the world. It's really getting to know the culture before you make those recommendations of what could improve advising culture on your campus. When I was at Westminster university, they were introducing a shared model for the first time. So they were going from faculty, led to both faculty and a small team of professional advisors. And that was really fascinating to be like, what does that first year look like? Like, kind of carving out a space for yourself on campus to say, why do we have this additional group of people like, what are they doing here with st Mike's? It's more of that coordination of if everyone gets such a large pool of faculty advisors, how does it still feel cohesive and accessible to students, knowing that departments expect a certain level of autonomy, right? I think that the best version of faculty advising looks very different than the best version of a shared model or just a purely professional model. So I'm really interested over the next couple of years to see what does that high water mark look like for faculty advising. It's a system that I don't have very much experience in. I think that kind of the the treasure worth fighting for is for a faculty member that you look up to, that's a part of a profession that you want to be a part of, for them to welcome you into that community and provide that sense of support and belonging. That's going to be more coming from them than it does from me, and I'm okay saying that, right? It's good for me to say it. I. Say every appointment, but for someone that is really a mentor to you, right and is walking that path that you want to walk, their attention right, their interest in your progress is, is just really, really important, and I think that it can do everything from changing what office hours looks like during this semester to even their interactions with the departments as alumni. The trick, I think, with the faculty model, what I've seen so far, I've only been here a little bit less than a year, but most departments, most programs, grow and develop individually, right? There's not a cohesiveness that's just natural to that development. And so it feels like you have 40 very different things, and you're trying to support them in a way that feels standard, but doesn't feel like you're asking them to lose too much by doing that. In Vermont we went to a small museum here in Montpelier A while back, and the state motto is freedom and unity. And I feel like sometimes we get the freedom part, really, really, you know, we were like a plus on the freedom, and then we could work on the unity. And other times it's the opposite, right? We ace the unity, but we need to be free to do a little bit of things on our own too. That would be okay.

Matt Markin  
I mean, How's it been going for you? I mean, be still being new. I mean, it going a year in. How's everything been progressing for you?

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, I mean, so far so good. I mean, definitely culture shock when we got here, sure, because it is very different than Utah, right? In good and bad ways. I think we moved here in November, which we were told was the perfectly worst time to arrive, because we had just missed fall, and so we are still we're weeks away from seeing our first fall, but it's been kind of this build up of like, okay, everyone's promising us this is what's going to allow us right, September, in October. But when we first moved here, even our landlord was like, Oh no, you missed it. No, you just missed it. You're too late. But, yeah, it's been really, it's really fascinating. And I And again, I think that what makes a move like this possible is, is those 30 minute appointments with students. But that's been kind of like the standard bearer for me for all these years is those 30 minutes it's home, right? I know what that feels like to interact with students in that way and to support them. It's also always been. It's always humbling to hear how similar to the narratives are, no matter where you are, right? Really? I really am in favor of that idea that students are going through this, this big process, no matter where they happen to be, or if they happen to be in school, or they think that asking those big questions is a part of where they're at. So that's been really cool to see some themes re emerge everywhere I've been. It's like, Oh, yep, we're talking about this here too. But yeah, I think whenever you go somewhere new, everything is the same until it's radically different, little things and you're like, Oh, wow. Okay, that's very different. 

Matt Markin  
Well, I had to follow up with you in a few weeks to see if the fall was met. Your expectations exceeded it, or were the expectations set high based off what everyone has told you.

Ryan Braeger  
I hope so, right? And I think that the trick too is this is one of the things I still need to work on myself, is building and maintaining that community. So I really think that's what sustains an advisor early on, is, do they feel like they have a group of people who not only understand the work that they're doing, but have a shared appreciation for that work, like it's so nice to be seen for what you're doing and valued for what you're doing. And I think advising is still one of those professions where people say, Well, I can't believe you just advise, right? Or this is a stepping stone onto something else, or I'm just they're just not sure what it is you actually do during the day, if you don't teach in a formal classroom setting. And so to have a community of people who agree with you that what you're doing with your life is really cool. I mean, what a gift, you know, and that's for me, that's probably why I'm still doing this right. My first year, I went to a Utah Advising Association Conference that may before the annuals. This was like May of 15, and I was accepted to present. I had never done this before, and my presentation was like a classically bad conference presentation. I rewrote the whole thing the night before because I over thought it and was really nervous. I was wearing a suit, which is just not really advising vibes at all, but I was like worried that I didn't belong in that space, and I had bought these new leather boots that just tore my feet to shreds, right? So I get into this conference space, have to take my shoes off. I just it was so physically painful. So now I'm just walking around the room with no shoes as a presenter, I have 50 slides for 50 minutes. The font size is, like font size seven, right? So the poor people in the audience can't actually see anything that I'm presenting on, and I'm not miked, so I'm nervous, so I'm walking around all over this huge space with no microphone, no shoes, tiny slides, and I probably crammed like, four hours worth of content into like, 40 minutes, no time for questions. And I was absolutely hooked. At the end of that session, I was like, This is what I love to do, right? This? This was so cool. And if it can go that poorly and still have that outcome, that's pretty neat. But, yeah, so bad. I mean, so bad.

Matt Markin  
Well, he could only go up from there.

Ryan Braeger  
Totally, right? And that. And then I really just, I think, just being seen, right, talking about these, these things that were happening in my appointments, and having other people, even, you know, after this thing, like, yeah, I've actually had similar appointments. It's not just you, you are seeing this. Let's talk about it. That's what gets I mean for me, that was the thing that kept the fire lit for a long time. And that would be a recommendation I make for any new advisor that might be listening, is you need to find your thing right, and it really can't be the student. And my recommendation would be, don't let your sense of joy in this profession be based off of the student outcome, or if they're not, they shouldn't be responsible for making you feel great about being an advisor, right? The student's not here to make you feel needed for you to celebrate their successes your own. It's their success. You have to find your own success, and whether that's a love of writing or just reading lots of really interesting books, conferences, something, right? And I think that what's so cool about this profession is that it's really open ended as to what that might look like. I've gotten to read a lot of things for fun and for professional development that I would have never guessed that I would have access to. That has really changed my way of thinking. But, yeah, make sure you have that thing, but make sure that it's, it's independently yours, right? It's, it's intrinsically yours. It's not based off of what anyone else might allow you to do or talk to you about. It's just really hazardous, I think, to say, Well, I'm here for them. They're not here for you. I hope they're not here for you, right? Other things are happening that we need to talk about. So why are you here for you right after your appointments? What on earth are you working on? What? How do you stay connected to this profession in a way that feels authentic?

Matt Markin  
That's actually an excellent point. You know, when I'm at conferences, it seems like the general answer I get, or I hear most times, is, well, I'm only here for the student. That's the main thing. And it's almost like that is the talking point or sound bite that they think they have to say. But I think that's a great point to even question. Like, well, once your students out of the office, or you're not that appointment, what keeps you there? Like, why are you there? You know what keeps you involved? And you've been involved very much, aside from just presentations, especially within the Utah Advising Association. Can you talk about like that journey within that association, that organization?

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, so I mean the benefit of having presented at so many conferences is I really started to notice how much work or conference requires to run successfully, like when you're a first time presenter, you don't notice any of the infrastructure because you're so nervous about your 50 minutes. But once you're just around, you notice that it's an incredible amount of volunteer work goes into any conference, and these are very passionate folks who actually take a step back from presenting, in some cases, to make sure the conference can even happen. You know, conversations about venue and food and reading proposals and providing feedback and making sure that people are having a good experience while they're at the conference, that felt like a natural next step for me is to say I'd really like to become more involved in the planning of a conference from start to finish, just to see what it what it's like. My very first experience was on a steering committee for region 10, helping them plan that conference that was in Phoenix. But then from there, yeah, did, did serve in the Utah Advising Association. I think I may unfortunately be the only president that hasn't served to term. I left early for the for the Vermont experience, I guess, but, but just blown away. I mean, this is extra stuff that people are doing. It's not an expectation, but it impacts so many lives across the state or across the region. It's just really phenomenal the work that's being done to provide those types of opportunities. It's also a great way to get to know your colleagues on a deeper level, right? Those planning committees, I really felt like I was connected to that group of people in a way that might not be possible in other capacities. So a ton of fun, but yeah, it's it's humbling how much goes. Into a really good conference, even if it's a small conference, right? It's, it's a lot to figure out, and it's a lot happening during, you know, during each day that folks are there attending.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, so, you know, mentioning how much goes is involved in it. I mean, lot of times you're spending almost a year in advance with the planning. I mean, even just getting contracts signed for a hotel, or the location that the car is going to be at, takes months to do. And I think there's definitely appreciation people will have if they do serve on like, whether it's the steering committee or one of the planning committees or subcommittees organizing the event, because yeah, then you definitely see how much is involved, and to see, kind of how many hours, and again, almost a year in advance planning for it, and then the conference is done in two, three days?

Ryan Braeger  
You're already thinking about the next one. I mean, that's exactly the turnaround is kind of unbelievable, right? Where you have like, three weeks where you're like, oh, good for us. We did it. And then you're like, well, we gotta do it again. So what are we gonna do next time? And you're like, Okay, this is really year round work. But I've always, I've always loved spending time with other advisors, just whether it's, you know, when I was at Westminster University, we met as a team twice a week. We had a weekly staff meeting, but we also had a weekly learning group. I feel like more often than not, that time was just to be together, just to talk about that experience, and really it's advising for advisors to say, how do I do this? How do I keep progressing? How do I assess the connections that I'm making? And is it time to build new ones, to strengthen them, to replace them? But those conferences are another chance just to spend time, and you couldn't ask for a better environment. I mean, you're in a hotel filled with professional listeners. It's very warm. It's very validating. Like you couldn't ask for a better group of people to meet for the first time, or to have them hear your ideas for the first time. And I think that, you know, maybe conference attendance starts out with personal ambition, like I really wanted to present because it was, it was a step up a ladder in some way, but hopefully it transforms to being like, yeah, I enjoy presenting. I have ideas to share, but I'm also going because it's just, it's revitalizing to be a part of a profession and to feel like you are a part of something bigger than you.

Matt Markin  
And you realize you're not alone. There's a lot of people that have similar job responsibilities, similar ideas, go getters to learn from from each other. And so yeah, I mean, so many examples that that we could share on this, or have a part two for this. I've always learned being part of these committees is that if the only complaint you get from attendees is the food, then you did a phenomenal job. 

Ryan Braeger  
It's always going to be something, right? Because there's so many people with so many different expectations. I think that it's a little bit ironic. I think that engagement is always going to be the hardest part. And I know advisors everywhere are talking about that with their students, right? Like, where are my students more engaged? How do I inspire them to do more outside the classroom. And then you think about a conference. Like, how many have I been to? Where I go to a session? And at the end of the day, conference organizers have put together a spread of options, right? So many small groups and reservations and fun activities. And I'm like, No thank you. Like, how do I convince you to go do this cool thing, right? And I think it's a funny parallel, because at work, I ask that all the time, like, it's a very high reward, low risk choice that you're faced with, and you're just like, Nope, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna opt in. How often, right? We're at a conference where it's like, oh no, a mixer. Like, what would I even say? Like, what if I show up? And people are like, Why are like, Why are you here?

Matt Markin  
Yeah, you know, it's we're we like to think that students are very, very different, and we're very similar to our students in a lot of ways.

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, I think that that, I mean, I think if you, if you think about the job in context of choice, architecture and making decisions. I think it's contagious, right? One of the things I'll say about exploratory advising is that exploratory advisors tend to do a lot of exploring themselves. Had a lot of advising colleagues discover second professions while helping other students explore. But I've also seen family and friends and everyone in my orbit, it's like, oh, you're talking about this thing that is on everyone's mind. This gives them permission to also talk about it and think about it in a way that can be helpful. But I do think that that that spirit of exploration certainly contagious, and it's one of the reasons why I think exploration is such an Is it such an interesting place right now. Used to be feared by the I think students who are undeclared were seen as a retention priority, but there's been enough research where I'm not I'm pretty sure that's not true, right? I am convinced, based off of the research, that when you declare doesn't have a significant impact on your. Attention. But if that frees it up, right? If exploratory is more than just, you know, a dichotomy of either you're declared or you're not, and you're only exploring as a means to an end. With that end declaring a major, we can get past that and see exploration as a four year expectation that while you're in college, you should be engaged in exploration activity and exploration thinking, that's a really interesting area to dive into. As an advisor to say, look, I'm not just checking your status. I'm actually looking for signs of development, right? I think that exploration is a really satisfying metric for student engagement. If you're asking whether or not they're doing things on campus, look to see if they're making decisions, and make sure you're giving them good decisions to make, right? A lot of our students start feeling good about decision making after their sophomore year, but sometimes we haven't. We don't have any junior and senior decisions for them to make, because they're all set, right? And so they'll lament like, oh, just when I got good at this, I feel like I can't choose anything anymore. But I think that's kind of the next big leap for exploratory research, is saying, What if I just see this as a student metric for success, for engagement, and I kind of move past that declaration status. Does that provide opportunities for junior and senior advising? Which is better, you know, a strengthened version of what that senior advising might look like, but that also allows me to look at the institution to see if, you know, if I start to see volatility or variability within Student decisions as a sign of a healthy campus culture, that also changes the narrative quite a bit. I expect to see a lot of movement if things are going well. So if they're not adding dropping majors, you know, revising schedules, picking up minors, saying no to minors, replacing them with something else, saying yes to clubs, then no to other clubs, if they're not making that type of, you know, strategic decision making that actually could be a cause for concern. Is, why isn't my campus culture promoting this sense of self exploration? Am I giving them enough channels to do this important work, or are they, are they out of options, right? Do they not feel they have a chance to experiment and play with that decision making, right?

Matt Markin  
Oh, for sure. And as we wind down with this interview, you had also presented, again, multiple presentations, but one that stuck out was you did one on opportunities for publications, and essentially was a title call for submissions, recognizing the need for university publications and the anticipated rise of advising scholarship during that time. And this was years ago that you presented this, but you had talked about how the opportunities or publications that for professional advisors was scarce. Fast forward to now. Do you think those opportunities are still scarce? Or, you know, do you believe advisors are taking advantage of opportunities for advising, scholarship and publications?

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, that's funny that you bring that up. I if so after the conferences, one of the areas where I really found a lot of just personal connection with advising was this new advising publication that me and a colleague in the exploratory center, Brittany and I were going to write black and blue, fighting for advising since 2014 and we fought for advising until about 2016 but what an incredible experience, right right? The ability to write and the and the artistic vision and being able to creatively connect with the advising profession black and blue is one of the, one of the greatest experiences that I've had as an advisor. Even though I don't, I don't think we can speak to any sort of readership of any kind. It was, it was this platform that one really helped me make a real connection with a colleague, right, and talk about a sense of community, but it was also a chance for me and us, hopefully, to reflect on the profession as we were living it week to week, and to see whenever you have a creative opportunity to build something physical and tangible, it's proof that what you're doing exists, right? It's a very constructionistic in viewpoint, but I think so important to say it's a real thing. It exists. There's a leather portfolio somewhere that has the first edition in it, and you can look back on that and say there's a lot of work that went into this. There's a lot of reflection that went into this, but it did make me a better advisor, because for a lot of those days, it was you woke up because you were excited to write and to share ideas and to edit and to find a leather worker on Etsy, to build, you know, something to house the physical copies. I still think I mean writing and advising. Still, to me, feels like there's a couple big names that write all the time, and they do a lot of phenomenal work, but it's I always see those publications as me getting caught up with what they're thinking about. Speaking for myself, I still haven't written anything that's published like an Akata level publication. I don't know why that is. I think that sometimes my expectations are, anyone's expectations are too high that you you wouldn't want to write it until it's perfect. But it's always changing. I also think the shift to the data driven decision making, data culture has kind of changed what those publications might look like better, what we might want for ourselves. I have seen less advising testimonials and more advising Scholarship, which I think is a win for the profession, right? We absolutely need more advising scholarship from lots of different voices, but the bar for entry has also been raised, right? I could write a testimonial about a really challenging appointment that I have, but that's not necessarily the goal anymore. And so I think when we think about that data culture, it's trying to adjust. What does that mean for the profession, but also what does that mean for my voice as a writer at its best, quantitative and qualitative evidence should create a data narrative that actually shows you the complexity of a student's lived experience in a way that is impossible without data. Yeah, right. It should really enrich that narrative. It should humanize the thing that you're studying. But most advisors aren't data scientists, right? I think right now I would, I think, you know, make sure advisors are a part of that conversation of defining what is successful advising, right? I think, right. What's really interesting about the publications and the and the professional study going on with advising is, how many advising voices can we have in that space? How do we prepare them to be in that space, given the expectations? But I don't think the answer is just to say, well, data can reduce people, it can flatten folks. It causes a lot of harm, right? I don't think we have to take sides to say, Oh, I'm against all data, or oh, I've only for anything data. I think it's somewhere in the middle, right? But I think from a student perspective, they're also aware that those systems are in place, right? So we want to make sure it doesn't feel like they're getting pushed and pulled and pulled and pressed through a big machine, that those interactions we have the with them stay genuine. But I'd like to see that reflected in the publications. But probably the reason why I haven't written anything is I don't feel like it's at the level that it needs to be, or I'm worried that I'll want to change it right away, or that I only have one opportunity to talk about one subject one time. That being said, it's had a tremendous influence on my advising practice. I look to those publications to see what's new, what's changing, what we need to be aware of. But yeah, I wonder if, the, if the, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know how you would encourage. I think easier to go to a conference, easier to present at a conference, than it is to publish. And for a lot of folks, I don't know if they want to go deeper into that.

Matt Markin  
Very true. Now, speaking of black and blue, and I think so. I think it was what issue two, maybe there's like the like editors pages and what you wrote in this one, I think, kind of sums up to me this whole interview, and you had written that, you know, if you don't like what's on the radio, pick up an instrument. If you don't connect with the modern literature, write something where you have a home. I don't have a lot of faith in the idea that things will just get better all on their own, but I am confident that advisors have the ability and passion necessary to read, to write and to share their voice with the profession. Genuine individual expression has the power to share the world for the better. The chase for excellence entails sacrifice and frustration, and I can't think of a more worthwhile pursuit. Ryan, I appreciate you being on the podcast today. Very enlightening. Learned a lot about you and information that I think I could take and apply here in my job here as an advisor. So I appreciate you being on. Thank you so much.

Ryan Braeger  
Yeah, of course, thanks for having me. And I guess my next goal is to be a returning guest. So we'll put that on the bucket list.