How to Empower Students for Success - Adventures in Advising

In Ep. 80, we chat with Tom Liljegren, the  Director of the College of Humanities and Social Sciences Advising Center at Utah State University. How can you help your student increase their own beliefs and feel empowered to put their plans into place? What are the essentials of motivational interviewing and making changes through interactions? How can you use the "importance ruler" to enhance your advising conversations? 

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
And welcome to another episode of the Adventures in Advising podcast. My name is Matt Markin, and thank you for checking out episode 80. For many of us, it's orientation season. So hopefully you're doing well and making it through the busyness of new student orientations. If you don't already give us a follow on social media, you can find us at advising podcast and also subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast platform. On today's episode, we are interviewing Tom Liljegren, the director of the College of Humanities and Social Sciences Advising Center at Utah State University. Thomas spent 13 years as an advisor, advisor, trainer and advising administrator across three large public institutions. He brings a background in counseling and data to his advising approach with an MS and EDS and school psychology as well as previous work as a school psychologist in the K through 12 education system. After working as a lead advisor and advisor trainer at Utah Valley University, Tom has worked for seven years as a Director of Advising for a large and diverse college at Utah State University. He works to combine academic advising with career exploration, and has a passion for utilizing motivational interviewing techniques outside of advising. Tom loves reading, watching baseball, listening to music and spending time with his wife and two daughters. Tom, how are you doing?

Tom Liljegren  
Good Matt. Thanks for hosting me. 

Matt Markin  
Glad that you're here. So let's jump right in. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey into higher ed.

Tom Liljegren  
I definitely didn't anticipate going into higher ed when I was when I was doing my own higher education experience. And I started out college feeling pretty confident that I wanted to be a lawyer, and planned on that, and then planned on being a psychologist. And so I did a couple of internships in in while I was doing my undergraduate degree. In the first one was working in a law office. In a law office, and I was really impressed with the work they did, and gained a lot of appreciation for it, and knew for sure it wasn't for me. And then the second one was working as in an advising office, as a peer advisor, and and I enjoyed that experience, but at the time, I still didn't think of it at all as something that I was thinking of career wise at all. I went and got a master's degree in School Psychology, and worked in that for a few years. And and there's things I liked about working as a school psychologist, but I don't think it was quite the right fit for me. And as I'd been away from higher ed for a little bit, I started to think, you know, that advising thing wasn't so bad. I think maybe that would be a fun thing to go back to. And it took a lot of work to go back into it. I kind of stumbled into it the first time, and thought, well, I stumbled into it, and now I got more education, I'm sure I'll be able to jump right back in. And it took a lot of applications and a lot of interviews, but I was really lucky to get back in, and I've definitely never looked back. I've really enjoyed now working as an advisor for, you know, for for 13 full time years in the last while, and and plan to continue doing it is, I think it's a, I think it's a really fun way to to be part of higher education and to be both within the students experience side, but also the academic side. And I, I really enjoy the field a lot.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, was there anything growing up that you originally were thinking like, I want to be a lawyer? 

Tom Liljegren  
I was always interested in the criminal side being lawyer. But, you know, I looked, I think one of the things that really influenced me to kind of start thinking about advising and and even as I was thinking about being a psychologist and going into school psychology, is I had an awesome school counselor. My school counselor in junior high school and high school was just amazing. And so I always think that I looked at the ex, the experience I had with her, and thought like I would love to make be that type of a person for other people and in their educational experience and and for me, that was more on the higher education level that I felt like was the way that I could, I could. I enjoyed doing that.

Matt Markin  
How long were you working as a school psychologist before deciding to try to move into the advising realm?

Tom Liljegren  
It was for two and a half years, full time, and then doing some internship before that. So really, about about three years as a school psych and and that was, I kind of got a pretty kind of my experience kind of ran the gamut from working with pre K students to working with a post high school program of of students with disabilities and and like. And those were really like, and I really enjoyed, I enjoyed working with those students. But I, I think especially I learned with working with a lot of elementary school kids. I don't think working with with younger kids was my quite my strength, and I enjoyed more than like working in the high school age, but, but I really, I think college is, is the best fit for me.

Matt Markin  
Very nice. And so you're at Utah State University. So for those who don't know, can you tell us? Tell us a little bit about how you would describe Utah State University, and then more. So going into your role as director in the College of Humanities and Social Sciences.

Tom Liljegren  
So Utah State is a where we're located in northern Utah. We're about two hours south of, south of salt or, sorry, two hours north of Salt Lake City, and about about 25 minutes from the Idaho border. So we're right at the top of, top of Utah and but we're a land grant institution, so we also have locations around the state, in throughout, throughout the whole state of Utah. So we have locations in every every county, and we're, we have a strong agricultural mission, but I'm lucky that I get to work in our College of Humanities and Social Sciences and and in my college, we're a college of about about 2400 students, and we have, oh, gosh, I should have counted, but 2020, plus undergraduate degrees and and 40 different minors and certificates. So we have a lot of different programs, and they're pretty programs, and they're pretty diverse. And so I enjoy that that I think like we can have a home for a lot of different for a lot of different types of students and students with a lot of different interests. And so I think in my role right now, I get to be the director over the office, so I supervise the other advisors in the office, as well as we have peer advisors who play a big part of what we do, too and and so hopefully, we kind of set the tone for the experience that we want students to have, both going along with what with the university's mission for advising, but also knowing that the needs of our of our students and each of our programs are kind of unique. So we try to really strategize what's the best way that not only can we be really strong advisors, but how can we be strong advisors for the needs of the students in in these specific programs? So So I like being able to hopefully set some of that strategy and really collaborate with with the great advisors that we have in our office on seeing what can work best for them. And I also work as the advisor for some of our programs too. So I get to advise for our interdisciplinary programs that we have in our college, as well as our intersectional gender studies programs and and a number of different different minors and certificates. So So I like having that balance of being able to work on the administrative side, but also have a lot of student contact. Because I, for me, I think that contact with the students is really the that's, you know, that's the really fun part, is getting a chance to work with students individually and see and, you know, and see the impact that that advising can have, and also just their experience and success in higher ed. 

Matt Markin  
Is that part of, like your role as director, still having that piece of working with students, because I know there are some people that may not want to go into like, let's say that into administration, because they lose that student contact, and now they're doing more on the admin side. That's more the supervising. So how is it with your role?

Tom Liljegren  
Yeah, for mine, I don't know quite how to break it down, but I kind of think myself as about a quarter time advisor and a three quarter time administrator. And I did kind of actively look, look for roles like that. The previous job I had before this, was working as an advisor trainer and and I really there's a lot that I loved about that job. I feel like I loved the office I worked with. I loved getting a chance to interact with a lot of advisors. But I did really miss the student interaction. And so I did actively, like, really thinking, you know, like, if in a position that I'm going to be in long term, like, I really want to find something where I have that student contact to and so I kind of tried to find a position like that and really continue to build that into my position. And I get that's not always, that's not always possible, and, and, you know, it depends on the position, on whether that's whether that's a good fit or not, but, but for me, I feel like that that's I enjoy that, because I like being able to kind of try to put into practice the things that I'm working on with my staff, too, and it keeps me using the same systems as my staff. And I think that for me, it makes me, you know, makes me a better advisor, but hopefully it's making me an administrator that that can it just makes it easier on mine to really be connected to what to what other advisors in my office are going through and trying to help them as well.

Matt Markin  
Yeah. Well, I bet anyone, if you have other directors at admins listening, they might be a little jealous knowing that you still have that piece of that connection with students. Do you find it hard, though, in terms of, or, you know, because you might be meeting with them once meet with the students, and it's like, all your attentions on that focus with that individual, and then the next minute, you might be in a meeting where it's like, now you're discussing policies. 

Tom Liljegren  
I've joked with other administrators saying that, like, I usually feel like I'm doing pretty good as an administrator or pretty good as an advisor, but it's very rare that I feel like I'm like, 100% on top of both and. And so it does. I do feel like I kind of shift gears on that and, and there are times where I have to really, where I feel like the administrator really, really takes priority and, and sometimes I'd like to be able to put, be putting more into the advising side. And so it is kind of tricky to try to balance that. And I think that's something I'm always trying to, like, get the right feel for that. And there are times I've kind of shifted around some advising responsibilities to make sure sometimes that's been dealing with, you know, like trying to even out the advising caseload of some of my staff, but some of it's been evening out my advising caseload, making it so that I had, there was a time about two years ago where I could. See that like that, I really didn't have time to put in the effort that I needed to administratively, and so it took finding a way to lighten my load a little bit, and I think that's made a big difference for me, as well as kind of trying to be creative with I'll admit, one of my one of my weaknesses as administrator, is delegation. It's something I'm continually working on, is trying to be a better delegator. And really, I have a lot of great staff who I feel like can take on, can can do a lot of great administrative work as well, even though I don't ever want that to be their primary role, but so, but I've tried to get better at delegating and making it so that setting up a structure, so that, so that other people can really, you know, play to their strengths and do different things on helping the office to run strong too.

Matt Markin  
Now, when we met, it was at the region eight, 910, conference in Las Vegas this past March. And you know, I got to sit in on your pre conference workshop about motivational interviewing. And I thought it was a great turnout. As a full room, everyone was listening and, you know, chiming in during, like, the activities, like, after listening about five minutes, I thought to myself, like, Oh, we got to get Tom to present to advisors at our institution I'm at and and ended up working out. And I think there's so much relation to it. Now, from your bio, you know, you mentioned in there that you have a passion for utilizing motivational interviewing techniques. So maybe we can start with, you know, for those who may not know or just getting a refresher, what is motivational interviewing? How would you describe it? 

Tom Liljegren  
I've heard that the creative motivational interviewing would think, you know, like, if they could go back and they've thought it's really motivational conversations, it's, it's less of an interview and more like a conversation style to help promote change and growth in the in in the client, it could be applied a lot of areas, but for us, you know, in the student. For me, motivational interviewing is a really good way that I can try to create a really effective relationship with the student, because it focuses on how to help the student feel really heard, and how to really listen and and focus on the students needs, without putting myself in there too much, not not making it about me. And so I love those, those techniques and the focus that it has. And then on the flip side, it also has, it's very it's designed to really promote growth. And so I think some of the techniques and the approaches to it can be a really good way to help to deepen the advising relationship, and help the student to not just like, not just have some answers, but really figure out for them how they can connect to those and and and follow through. And so I think that's the goal, is to is for me, what really attracted me to it, I think something else that I that I really like about is I work with students who are one of my roles is I work with students who are on probation. And a lot of those students, you know, they're, they're nervous to think come into advisor. I think sometimes it feels a little bit like coming into the principal's office, getting called in the principal's office with being required to meet with an advisor. And like, one of the main things I hear from students when they leave is, Oh, that wasn't near as bad as I thought it was going to be. And I think that there, there is real worry about that. About that. And I, for example, almost all my appointments are via zoom or in person, except for my probation appointments, and probably over half of those are over the phone. And I think that it's that feeling of of kind of discomfort and having to come in for the appointment and and maybe some nervousness and shame about that. And I think motivational interviewing is particularly good with with that group, and helping to reduce some of those defenses, defenses and and take away any of the kind of the conflict that sometimes that relationship can feel like, of saying like, well, you know, this is where this is where you're at. This is where you need to be and making it feel sometimes like a little bit of a adding some conflict in there. And I think motivational interviewing, it really kind of is way to approach those type of meetings that that kind of takes that away and talks about ways that we can really partner with the student going forward. So So I think that's really what drove me to it. I remember when I was a school psychologist. We were, I was supposed to take a motivational interviewing class, and ended up getting canceled, but, but I'd already bought the book, and I decided to hang on to it, and I really loved it, and so I thought, so once I got a chance to do some additional training and things on it, I wanted to, and it's just kind of for me, given me a, I think, a set of tools and techniques that's kind of been the base of how I try to create those relationships with with students and personnel. 

Matt Markin  
Now when you had presented to to our advisors, you had, you had a slide that you gave an example, kind of connecting everything. And it was a food item, it was like a Thai spun sugary item. And you know, for you, you were mentioning that the story connects to advising and to advisors. Can you share that story with listeners?

Tom Liljegren  
You know, I one of the things that talk about in motivation interviewing is that there's different, you know, maybe broad ways that we might approach a helping relationship, sometimes that we might be, that we might be, kind of be taking. Taking control on it that we might be very directional, right? Say, this is what you need to do. This is your next step. You can do this. Do this, do this, do this. You know, I think in advising, we talk about prescriptive advising that might be, you know, really firm prescriptive advising approach. On the flip side, we might be followers, where we don't really offer much as far as specific direction, but we really just follow whatever this, wherever the student goes. We might, you know, see like, what the student wants, and just try to and just kind of follow that and help them with that path. Neither one of those are necessarily all bad. You know, I think there's times where either one of those can really be appropriate, but motivation interviewing likes to say that we're kind of right in the middle of that with guiding. And the analogy that is, to me is we're talking about what this is, what this feels like is, I had a chance to travel abroad in Thailand with my wife a number of years ago, and it was the first time I'd ever been there. I didn't, you know, didn't speak the language, and you know, was really learn, trying to learn about the culture there. And we had a chance to have a have a guide there for two days while we were in Thailand. And they found out what type of experiences we wanted to have. They and then, you know, they arranged how we could be able to best have that experience. They helped us know the history and the language of the places that we went to. But I remember one specific experience where we went by the side of the road and had, that was a Thai Spun Sugar dessert, and it, I don't know that I would have gone out of my way to have it. It didn't, it didn't look great, right at first glance, and but it was amazing. And it was just at a, you know, a little street stop by the side of the road, and I feel like, and that, to me, was an amazing experience. That was, that was great, and that was, you know, and it was I never would have known about without having that expert guide. And I kind of think in that same way that we know some of those, those little stops along the way that might be really valuable for students, and I think as as guides, as advisors, you know, we might know that club that might be a really great fit for the students interests, or that class, or that professor who might be able to who might have had a similar journey to that student, or maybe we know of something in the community that might help that student to feel more of a sense of belongingness. I think those little you know things that that can help really enrich the students experience, and not just to enjoy their experience the university, but hopefully also to, you know, that can connect them to to what they want to do in the long run, too. So I feel like that that's, you know, kind of our role as a guide is that we get to, you know, help the students with the language, the culture of higher ed, and then find those really unique things that we might be able to offer to a student that can, that can make their their educational experience awesome for them.

Matt Markin  
And you had mentioned about having these conversation with students and not making it about ourselves, I think you had put it which, I think there's a like, a fine line that there were, on one hand, you're trying to connect with the student and relate to that student based off our own paths and experiences. But then there's the flip side of, you know, making sure that we're listening to the student, not trying to hear what we want to hear, and whether we're making assumptions and try not to make assumptions about the student and and really making sure that we're listening to that student. 

Tom Liljegren  
I always think like to me, the advising relationship is really where the magic happens in advising, like, the relevant like, real the value of of of that experience that the student has. And and I don't think there's anything or like, I think making a human connection first is what might is what's most important. And that can be sharing some of ourselves and helping the student, letting the student, you know, letting the student into know us a little bit too. And so I don't think that's necessarily a wrong thing at all, but I think that where what motivational reading might focus on, and kind of what I what I think, what I try to put in practice is, as we're working with the student academically, is to really try to, is I try to avoid any sort of judgment or or imposing what, what I think that they should do. That doesn't mean I don't want to add suggestions. It doesn't mean that we don't want to, you know, like offer recommendations on what those cool things they can do along the way is, or, you know, obviously, big role of ours, oftentimes, is planning and helping a student make sure they're on track. I think we can do all those things, but to try to really reinforce the students autonomy throughout that process. And I think that that can be really empowering for a student, to to to know like that, this is this is your education, and we want to put you in the driver's seat for it. We want to be your support along the way, but we want to help you be in the driver's seat. And I think in some of the ways that motivation interviewing does that is even just by by, you know, I mentioned that a lot of it is, is kind of a language to try to help promote, promote progress and and being heard, and enforcing the student in that way. And I think some of that like even just by, when we. You offer praise to a student, I think my first instinct is to say, like, I think that's really impressive, or I'm really proud of you for that. That's really cool. And honestly, there's those are, those are great. It's great to offer praise and to affirm the student that way. But I think that, you know, if we switch that even from the, you know, I think that was really impressive to that's, that's really impressive or and that was really brave for you. You did something that was hard for you, that kind of just puts the focus a little more on the student and a little less on the judgment that we've made on the student. And I think those little changes and phrases and stuff i mean it kind of throughout an entire relationship and throughout an entire appointment, can just make it a little bit more about the student and help the student to just continue on with their kind of telling their story, or what their what, what their situation is. So, so I think that's a little bit what I mean by that. I hope that kind of answered your question. 

Matt Markin  
Oh no, absolutely. Now within motivational interviewing, there's you had mentioned, there's like four foundational processes you have engaging, focusing, empowerment and planning, not that you spend, like, a lot of time on it, but can you talk a little bit about each of those areas? 

Tom Liljegren  
And they so, so there, yeah, there's these four different and they call them the four different tasks of motivational interviewing and and really the way they define it is three of those are kind of essential to motivational degree. And the fourth is something that oftentimes happens, is oftentimes part of that process, but not necessarily essential. And so the ones that would be essential would be those first three. So the engaging is, is, how is creating that relationship, creating it so that that us and the student are both feeling like it really involved in this process. So that's that process of creating that relationship, creating that helping relationship, so the student feels heard. They feel like that. They're comfortable in talking to us and sharing, sharing things with us. And I think in all of these are continual things, right? We might work to this, you know, to develop that relationship as we're first meeting with the student, but we can work to continue to deepen that relationship and to keep it up and so it doesn't so that, you know, it doesn't slide backwards. You don't have anything that makes the student to disengage with us too. So that's kind of that first process is, is setting that foundational, strong relationship that the student feels comfortable with this and feels heard. The second one is focusing, and that's kind of from all the different things that we could possibly talk about in this appointment and this time with the student, what's most important to them and what's going to be most most useful on this. And that can be a shared thing where hopefully, first, we're focusing on what the student wants, but also we have expertise too. And there might be times where there's specific things we kind of have to focus on. You know, I know, for me, if I'm talking with a student the first time that they've that they're coming in to to explore the possibility of changing their major, I want to make sure that they really understand this major they're thinking of changing into. So I have a specific agenda on that too. So figuring out how we can kind of mutually have a focus within the appointment. And I can think of times when when I've done a poor job of that, and I think, like, maybe the student didn't really hear some of what I said, because, you know, because they're perfectly happy to hear about the major they're looking to change into, but first they need to know their registration date, or first they might just have a basic question that for them was really important, and if I'm not listening, then sometimes, you know, these other things that might be a part of purpose of the appointment may not really come across like I like to, because I didn't have that focus on what the what the student was might have been their primary thought. Then third part is evoking, and that's really like and actually changing kind of evoking or empowerment. I think this is where, this is kind of the essential, what kind of defines motivational interviewing, and this is where we the student, hopefully, is leaving feeling more likely to be able to succeed or to make the change that they need to because of that interaction. And I think we can do that by helping them to increase their own belief that they can do it, or their own plan, and in feeling like they can put something into place and and also, you know, being able to help them understand that there's a lot of things you know. I think, you know, higher ed is, is tough, right? It's tough to, I think that I work on a college design, a College to Careers class was having a lot of wicked problems, problems that don't have easy solutions. And so I think it's helping students to explore that there's not one answer to most of the things that they're they're doing, so really being able to understand that there's that there's a lot of options, and to help them both to to not lean into the negative side of that and not feel quite so overwhelmed on it, but also to feel really empowered, to be able to have a plan towards success. And the last step is planning, and I mentioned that's the one that is considered not the. Essential part of motivational interviewing. Because I think sometimes the reason why you'd say it isn't as essential is because sometimes that happens naturally throughout these other other tasks. But obviously, honestly, when I when I focus to talk with advisors about motivation interviewing, I don't really focus on planning much at all. Because I think that oftentimes is what we're really good at at the start. Like, I think we tend to get a lot of training and a lot of practice on planning, and so it's more kind of, how can we make sure to be focusing on the student and to provide this information or provide our recommendations, provide that guidance in a way that's going to be most likely to be received well by the student, and make it so they can put it into action.

Matt Markin  
Now you might have listeners saying, you know, Tom this all, sounds nice to be able to do all of this, but, you know, I have a 30 minute appointment slot for the students. You know, be great to use these techniques asking these open ended questions, you know, is it even possible to do all that in 30 minutes? Or am I making sure that I have follow up appointments scheduled with students. What are your thoughts?

Tom Liljegren  
Yeah, I don't think that by any means this approach is any sort of magic bullet. I don't think that it's anything where it guarantees that you're going to have a great appointment, or it guarantees that the student's going to come out of that and be able to be ready for success. What I think I like is, I feel like that the approach is something that whether you really like whether you love motivation or being I really want to dive into it, or whether you just want to make sure that your students having a good experience and and feeling listened to and starting to create a good relationship. I think there's a lot of techniques that can be really that can help, I think, any student approach. So I know one of the things I talk about with my staff is that, you know, we do some training on motivational interviewing. I also work at an institution where appreciative advising. We're considered an appreciative advising institution, and that's primarily where we do training at a university level. And I feel like both of those are approaches that can really be adapted into just about any advising session. And I think there's other advising approaches. I remember I had a staff member who was really interested in self authorship theory. And during these two I think that, you know, I think it's less important that they listen to or that they really ascribe to this specific approach that I really like then, that they find an approach that feels authentic and works for them, and then can choose, like, oh, you know, maybe this isn't my home base and motivation interviewing, but I know that a student's going to going to feel heard more if I can be a good reflective listener, which is like, one of the things that motivation reviewing talks about a lot. So like, that's a skill that's going to be part of, you know, I think any advising approach is being able to help the student be heard, and especially that, especially that reflective listening, or, you know, if I can be really good at affirming the student and helping the student to notice those strengths, like, that's, you know, there's strengths based advising that's certainly a big part of that. So that's my approach is, I think that I like learning about a lot of different advising approaches, and I think that it's like, I know I certainly kind of steal little parts here and there of things that I may not consider kind of my home base and advising, but, but that I think that I can learn and how I can apply to my students. So I think that, yeah, I don't think advice, motivation, reviewing is a is a magic bullet. And you certainly could leave an appointment thinking like, oh, gosh, I just, I just don't know how well that you know that the student didn't really want to, didn't really open up much. I know that for me, that's the most discouraging appointment. To me is when I go in I think, like, gosh, I think I got, like, I don't think I got more than a five word answer the entire the entire appointment like those can be really hard. And so it doesn't guarantee success, but I think it gives us techniques that are at least giving us making it so that we are giving that invitation to every student and and that's so that's kind of my approach to, and I also don't think that there's anything that you know certainly like I think to really, I think with any type of approach, you know, if you're going to be doing some deep exploration of a lot of different options with careers that takes a lot of time, but, but whether, even if it's a five minute, five minute drop in that a student has a few questions, I think we can be more effective as we're trying to really, you know, show the student that we're listening, actively look for ways to reinforce the positive change they're making, offering other possible suggestions on things we could talk about. And sometimes the answer for the student might be nope, not today, but I think it's it puts out the offer on like ways to meet we might be able to be the greatest help to for the student?

Matt Markin  
Well, yeah, since you mentioned careers, you know that definitely is a conversation that is not just a one off topic. You know you have advisors that you know may work with students who are undeclared, undecided, or, you know they're in a major, but now they're questioning that. They should be in that major. You have those that want to have the direct major to career path, and then you have those that just, I don't know what's offered, I don't know what I should do. You know, we can recommend going to, like, a Career Center, Career Services. But then with that, then it becomes, well, now it's another appointment they have to make, and hopefully they do make that appointment and meet with them, and then you meet with them the next term, and things you had planned out didn't work out. They didn't do that. What are your suggestions for advisors, working with students to that might be undecided, and trying to help them figure out a path to graduation, a path to a major, whatever it might be. 

Tom Liljegren  
That's always a struggle, and trying to figure out the best way for students to I know that's an area that we really focus on a lot in in my advising office, as well as within my college in general, because we know that like you know for when we advise for the humanities and social sciences. And we do realize that, you know, that the first time that a student comes home saying that I want to be, you know, I want to be a creative writing major. I want to be a philosophy major, their next question is, well, what are you going to do with that? And there's a lot of great things you can do with that, but it's not always. Most of our philosophy grads don't become philosophers. They, you know, they work for nonprofits, they work in businesses, they they go to law school, they go in graduate school, in tons of areas. So I think a few ways we try to do that is, you know, we're not career counselors. We know that we're not, you know, we're not doing career interest inventories or doing really deep discussions about kind of connecting them to their specific next step, with their with their career, with their careers in our in in my office. But I think it's our goal that first we just try to get students thinking about careers right from the start, so that you know that students are starting to starting to think about building that bridge when they're freshmen and sophomores, and not when they're not when they're, you know, their last semester of their senior year. And so we try to get them, yeah, thinking about it, early. We try to have different career programming that hopefully students are connecting to, and we're trying to figure out strategies on how to best connect them to that, but so that they're seeing options of what, you know, what other students in their same in their same majors, or in their same who've been in their shoes? How do they make that connection to to a career? And you know, in fact, like now, we're building it into our orientation, to our to our summer orientations. We're adding a kind of doing some kind of career workshops, because we want students to be seeing right from the start, how some of the things they're learning in classes can apply to careers, and how they start to really think about how they want to build that out. So I think for us, it's really just trying to have that focus early on, ask questions about early on and and I think that most of the majors that I advise and that we advise in our college have a lot of variability to them. So there's no two students who have the same sociology degree or political science degree, because there's so many electives that they're really kind of choosing what their what their strength is. And so we really try to, as we're in advising, help students be deliberate about that as they're making those choices about what they're what they're going to take. How, how can that affect, you know, what? How they talk about their strengths, what they learned from their degree, what direction they're going to go from their degree. So I think that's the way we kind of build it into, hopefully, just students everyday advising experience, so that each time they're meeting with us, they know that we're going to talk about some of how what you're doing in the classroom, how could that affect what you want to do in the long run? And I try to also, I think one thing that, that I think I try to really do is to kind of normalize some of students fears about it too. Because I think a lot of times students either feel really intimidated about finding what, figure out what their careers, because it feels like, oh my gosh, I have to find, I need to find this one career. And if I don't find the right thing, that I might be sending you know, that I might just, you know, be setting myself up for a lifetime of unhappiness in a career that I don't want. And the truth is, that's not the case, right? We know that, that a lot of times that that people jump from. Mean, I think they say, on average, that our graduates might, this might be a generation that has three different careers, not different jobs, after they graduate. And so letting students know that there's not going to be just one answer and and truthfully, a lot of times you know this, something I don't say, is a discouraging thing, but a lot of times the job that you get when you graduate may not be the job that is your first choice, or that's the one that excites you the most, but it might be setting you up. So the next one is, and that's kind of a theme we see in a lot of our alumni, is maybe that first job wasn't, you know, wasn't exactly everything you wanted, but the next job was great, and the next job, you kind of found what your niche is. And I. That too. So so try to help students normalize just that, like you don't have to have all this figured out now, it's okay to not be sure, and it's okay to to feel, to not feel totally confident that this is the direction you want to go long run, like you can, you can maneuver a little bit, and you can find, find your niche. And I think the other thing I try to help students to really normalize is sometimes students come in and they're really in the middle of that struggle. They're feeling, oh my gosh, I don't know if I want to go to law school or if I want to graduate and try to get a job, working in working in politics at the local or national level. And, you know? And those, those might be, those are big choices, big life choices. And I try to tell them that that one, if you're doing stuff to prepare yourself for either one of those routes, you're probably going to be be better prepared for both. You know, if you're setting yourself up to be a great, great grad school applicant, you're probably going to be setting yourself up to be a really competitive applicant for a lot of jobs too. So it's not, they're not. The preparation isn't always drastically different, but also students that if you're if you're in the middle of that struggle, it it's off, it feels it feels lousy, and it's stressful. But that, to me as an advisor, that's really encouraging, because if you're going through that struggle, I feel confident you're going to come out the other end knowing yourself better and knowing your path a little better. So I feel really encouraged to see that struggle, and I let them know, you know, you know, like, but that's you're doing something brave and something that's tough by by asking yourself those big questions and and like, so to try to really encourage them. And in that too.

Matt Markin  
I guess, connected to that too. You know, when you were talking about motivational interviewing and empowering, one of the things you had mentioned your presentation was the importance ruler, yeah, can you inform listeners about that?

Tom Liljegren  
I love using this. It's just a little interviewing or like a advising strategy that I think is just awesome, and it can be applied to a lot of things. I think I need to get in the habit of using it more. But I use this a lot with students who are on probation, or students who are struggling. And the idea is, is some, some people using motivational interviewing will have, like, an actual physical, like, chart of one of, you know, zero through 10. I just do it hypothetically, but I'll ask them. Okay, so, and now we've had, I've enjoyed talking with you this point when I want to ask you a question. So if, if if you're rating your how, like, how you feel about being able to succeed next semester on a scale of zero to 10, with zero being, oh my gosh, there's no way this is going to go Okay. This next semester is going to be awful, and 10 being, there's no way I can fail. This is this next semester to be fantastic. How are you feeling? And then, based on their answers? So, like, let's say, if a student says a seven, I feel like most of the time students say, like, six, seven or eight, something in that realm. So let's say, if they say a seven, then I might say, awesome. So so you're feeling seven, and first I try to kind of reflective. I reflect that and say, like, what maybe that means to me. So to make sure that I'm on the same page with a student on what a seven means, so I might say, Oh, cool. So say, okay, so seven so you're feeling pretty confident. You feel like you have a good chance to succeed. But maybe there's some things that make you a little bit nervous too, because to me, a seven means like, Okay, you're on the more likely to succeed than not, side on how you're feeling, but not feeling totally confident. So that gives the chance that for the student, maybe they say, No, I'm feeling really confident. I feel like that. For me, a seven. I feel really, really great about this. They just gives them a chance to correct that, to make sure if I'm if I understanding that right. But then once we do that, then I could say, okay, so, so you said you're seven. What made it a seven instead of a five or a six? And that sort of like hypothetical question is a great way to get the students starting to think and to express. Well, I think it's seven because I've I worked really hard this semester and learning better note taking, I know that I can. I'm doing this class where I already know the professors, so I feel like I have a connection there, and I know what to expect, and I've got better study strategies on where I'm going to study this next semester. And there that's an opportunity where you can the students expressing that what they know about how to succeed. And the more they're talking about that, the more that they're like that they're empowering themselves to really do it. So it's inviting that conversation on the flip side, and it also gives a chance. Well, what would make it so great? So you're feeling confident because you've learned these skills, because you practice these if it's makes it so it's a seven rather than a five or a six, what would help you to feel more that it's an eight or a nine? What would make the difference to helping you feel even better about that? And then there's a chance to see, like, well, what are the things that we can build on? And those might give opportunities for what you want to focus on in advising, or even just for the student to think, Well, I think like, if I maybe, if I got to know the tutoring center, I'd feel I'd feel even better, or, or I feel pretty good academically, but, but I don't feel great about my finances, and so maybe there. Be resources that they need to feel better about things outside of school. And so I think it's a good way to both have a chance to reinforce what's what student feels good about, and to, you know, on the flip side, just lead to that discussion on what to do next. And I think sometimes, you know, using that rating scale makes it a little less intimidating for a student to talk about that than if I just answered straight out, how confident do you feel? Or, you know, what do you think? Like, what do you think that are your strengths going into the semester? Or, what do you think you could do better? I think it just that hypothetical nature of it is kind of a helpful way to do that.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and if anything that gives a couple more questions, an advisor can ask the student about like kind of you're saying, Well, what? What's making it this versus a four or five, but what can now make it it an eight or nine or even a 10? And

Tom Liljegren  
I feel like some, some of the most valuable conversations I've had from that have had been students who've answered like a five or a six, and hearing them kind of state, you know? Because I think most times of students doing that, they're probably not feeling right. Probably not feeling real confident, right? There's a lot of things that make them nervous. And having that hypothetical question that makes them sort of think about, well, what are the reasons why, why I have some confidence heading in the semester? Why there's things that there's probably a lot of things in that student's mind that are fears that might be leading them to be worried. This is a chance to for them to spend some time thinking about what are those things that I do feel good about and my strengths. So I think that can be a really good thing. And the point is never you know, like we're not trying to ignore students worries. The goal is not to have an overly bright picture of students success or of or what their chances are, or what their concerns are, but just to be kind of get that momentum and get the conversation to be directed towards, what can we do to be moving towards progress? What can be doing to be moving towards change? So even as we're talking about some of those things that are negative, we can start to be focusing Well, what can we do about that. What would you like to see different with that? Okay, so you're worried about your finances, so what would you like to see different? We can start focusing on on that too.

Matt Markin  
And as we wind down with with the interview, let's kind of shift gears. You had mentioned in your bio that you love reading, you watch baseball, you listen to music, and also being with your family. So to end the interview, what are you reading now? Or just finished reading?

Tom Liljegren  
I have a really bad habit of reading multiple things at once, and so I tend, and I have done a bad job of picking up books that are longer, that are taking a long time to get through. So for a long time, the two books that I've been reading that I'm slowly getting through as I'm reading The Lord of the Rings, which I read years ago, and I'm kind of starting to pick those up again, so I'm still on the Fellowship of the Ring and slowly working my way through. And I enjoy those. And the Name of the Rose, I really like mystery books. And the Name of the Rose is kind of a good combination of mystery and history and and it's literature. It's a by Umberto Eco if I'm pronouncing that correctly, is a really fun book. And so I'm, I'm liking that one a lot, and I really like Shakespeare, so, so I'm reading Macbeth. I haven't read that a long time, so I'm, so I'm reading that.

Matt Markin  
Okay, favorite baseball team and why?

Tom Liljegren  
I love the Red Sox. Think I've been a fan of them for a long time. I think I just thought about this the other day. I think it's been about 2627 years, and I don't I don't know that I have a great reason for that, except that when I was just becoming fans, of really getting into sports, for anyone who baseball fan might remember no mark, Garcia Paro and move on, were two great Red Sox players and and I thought they were awesome, and fell in love with the team when those guys were with the team, and they're just kind of stuck with it ever since. And I'm a big Red Sox fan, and I like basketball too, although baseball is my favorite sport, and I'm big New York Knicks fan, even though I'm from Utah, luckily, the Red Sox have been a good team to be a fan of. Over the years, the Knicks have, have not, not been quite so great. So it's been a rough, rough 20 years as a Knicks fan.

Matt Markin  
Favorite song of all time, or favorite new song you've listened to over the last year. 

Tom Liljegren  
Oh, that's hard. I have a big Bruce Springsteen fan. And Thunder Road is probably my favorite song of all time. I really, I really love, love that song a whole lot. Favorite New Song I've heard recently. Okay, I'm going to think about this, and I will, I will come up with what song I've been listening to a lot recently, before that.

Matt Markin  
Well as thinking about it, we'll say Bruce Springsteen. I mean, for he's been performing for so long, and I just been watching, like, clips on social media where he's still at it. And I'm like, good for you. It was still making music.

Tom Liljegren  
It is impressive. I think about that. You know, like even, even in my approach to advising. I did get a chance to see Springsteen recently in concert, and he's near the same name. They're the same age as my dad, and it was a pretty amazing three hour concert. And I do think about this even in advising, like, how are I want to make sure that I can feel like, okay, maybe. And you know, when I'm 20 years down the road in my career, I want to feel like that I'm as active and with it and engaged as as I feel right now, too. You know, I was, yeah, it was a thought that I had on that

Matt Markin  
Favorite vacation spot you spent with family?

Tom Liljegren  
Oh, you know, my, my wife, grew up some overseas in Southeast Asia, and so I think the chances to visit someone where she grew up and and some of the people that she knew grew up had been some of my favorites. So I went to Thailand that I mentioned before, and also to Tokyo. I think those are two of my favorite trips. But I think the those are not things that are regularly I think those are might be more of once in a lifetime thing, or I think that for me, I like to try to no matter I can plan something baseball related into my travels, is, is a good, good trip for me. So I'd like to go to find a way to go to ballpark. Should go to a game.

Matt Markin  
Nice. Well, if you make a trip out to the San Diego, we'll go see a Padres game. Oh, what? What do you do for your wellness?

Tom Liljegren  
You know, I think for me, some of my hobbies are some of the things that I do. I mentioned I like reading. I feel like that's something that helps me unwind. I think of myself as kind of a capital. I introvert, and so I really love working with students. I really love working with my staff. But at the end of the day, sometimes I need a little bit of time to just be quiet for a little bit. And I think listening to music and and reading are things that I really like. I also I, you know, I spend time with my kids and my family, and so I think those would be probably the two main things.

Matt Markin  
And then last question, and if you want to swing back to the the music one, it's orientation season. So how many orientations are you a part of for this summer, and how do you survive that? 

Tom Liljegren  
I don't even know how many, many, decent amount, I want to say we probably have, I don't know, a dozen or 15 or so. Sorry, orientation office. I should know that off the top of my head. But and I'm going to be out of town for a couple of those, but I think other than those, I'll be around for most. So I think it'll be about 11 or 12 of those with summer. I admit I really like orientations. I think they're a lot of fun. I especially at the beginning. I feel like I go in excited to try some new things and really enjoy meeting with the students I met by like the 10th I start to think, like, wait a second, did I already say that in this one? Did I I feel like I'm just repeating myself, and they kind of blend together. So it's a struggle for me to like, remember that for these students, it's their first time. It's not what's the 10th time for me. But I like orientation, because I feel like it's fun to meet students right at the beginning of their journey and, and so I like, just kind of hearing where students are at at the beginning of their journey. So I think, I guess that's how I try to approach orientation, is just like, it's kind of the just the beginning of that advising experience and getting to know them and that too.

Matt Markin  
So yeah, it was a shout out to, like, pretty much every orientation team at institutions, because, you know, you kind of, you know, alluding to in terms of, like, when you go on the first couple it's fresh. It's new. By time you get to the last one, it's like everything just blends together. You're just kind of going through the motion sometimes. But for you know, whether it's an orientation leader, the person that's coordinating it, like the parents, the family students that are attending these it's their first and only time doing it. But for the orientation team, they have to always make sure it's there for acting like it's their first time, because it's that person's first time. So I mean, the fact that they're able to still have that high energy doing it like I know I couldn't, so, you know, very much more power to them for that 100%.

Tom Liljegren  
And I still, I can still remember the name of my orientation leader when I first went to college and and, yeah, I feel like they make a huge difference. And I love, I feel like the student, that's one things I love with orientation, which we try to involve some of our our peers in our office, and between them and our orientation leaders, I feel like I'd like to think that I can do a decent job making a connection with students and getting students excited, but I feel like they are fantastic at it, and they do so good at that. So I love involving students and giving them that peer interaction too.

Matt Markin  
Tom, we've reached the end of the recording for this interview. I appreciate you being on. Thanks for all the information that you've given to listeners, and hopefully we'll have you on again.

Tom Liljegren  
Well, thanks so much, man. I really appreciate the opportunity to join you, and it's exciting to be on I've loved listening to this podcast.