Advisors as Cultural Navigators - Adventures in Advising

In Ep. 79, we welcome back Dr. Melinda Anderson, Executive Director of Network Engagement at Achieving the Dream! Melinda discusses how to better connect with students through being a cultural navigator and utilizing a growth vs fixed mindset. Melinda also discusses using psychologically attuned language and framing it as learning and growth rather than a label, especially terminology around academic probation vs academic notice.

Fixed vs Growth mindset image.

A Positive Change for a Negative Label article

Catch up on all episodes, https://adventuresinadvising.buzzsprout.com/

#acadv #academicadvising #nacada #podcast #podcasting #highereducation 

Follow the podcast on your favorite podcast platform!

The Instagram, and Facebook handle for the podcast is @AdvisingPodcast

Also, subscribe to our Adventures in Advising YouTube Channel!

Connect with Matt and Ryan on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of the Adventures in Advising podcast. And as always, my name is Matt Markin, and I am thrilled that you're listening today, and if you don't already subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast platform, and I know you're on social media, so give us a follow as well. You'll find us at advising podcast on most social media platforms. So all right, with that done, let's get to into this episode. And I am excited that Dr. Melinda Anderson is back with us. Melinda, when are you coming back to California?

Melinda Anderson  
As soon as I can, it's so good to see you, Matt. I missed you so much, and thank you so much. I'm really excited to to be back here with you today and to have this shared conversation. 

Matt Markin  
Last time you were on is back in January, and now it's June, so got to make sure that you're on more often?

Melinda Anderson  
Yes, absolutely. I really do enjoy not just our dialog, but when we have guests on. And you let me co host, you know? And so that's always very exciting to kind of hear what's going on in the field.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and I know this episode, we're going to talk about all things student success, including academic warning and probation. But first off, I want to congratulate you on, you know, your your new role at achieving the dream. Can you, can you talk about that a little bit more?

Melinda Anderson  
Yes, absolutely. I'm very excited. You know, last time we talked, I think it was probably in the in the sense of, you know, hey, I'm, you know, stepping away from NACADA. And so I had an opportunity to join Achieving the Dream a couple months later and achieving the dream. It's a wonderful network organization focusing on community colleges. So we have 300 plus community colleges in our network in 45 states, and we and 1/3 actually of the population is in rural spaces. And so when I think about the work in terms of access and affordability and social mobility, you know what I love about ATD in terms of their work is really, you know, centering equity around student success issues and initiatives. And so looking at, how do we help institutions transform in all aspects, right in all areas, and thinking about, how are we centering student success on equity points? And so I would just really enjoy coming into that work. So my position here is as executive director for network engagement. And so I know people are like, what does that mean Melinda. And so what does that mean is I have an opportunity to support programming and services around welcoming institutions into our network, but then I also have in my portfolio focusing on tribal colleges and universities, and so just really excited to be a part of that work. You know that I've worked at an HBCU, and so when I think about similarities around just how they're formed, in terms of community and support, so learning more about tribal colleges and universities as I go, so very excited about that work. And then other aspects of my portfolio include rural student initiative, rural institutions. And so it's in thinking about strategically, how are we supporting rural institutions, because oftentimes, many of them are economic engines within their communities. And so when we think about, you know, impacts of the pandemic, now we're thinking about, you know, conversations around diversity and equity and inclusion, you know. So what does that work look like in many of these spaces? So very excited to be here, and a part of this work. 

Matt Markin  
Just continuing to work. And always busy.So I'm glad you're able to find time for this. I'm glad it worked out. And you know, for adding to your plate, you most recently, also, at least for me, you, you presented to a lot of the advisors at the institution I work at. So to kind of give listeners a little context, our university went to a centralized advising model, and one of the I guess, new responsibilities for our advisors is to meet with students on academic probation or academic warning. And so a lot of our advisors didn't necessarily have a lot of foundation in that they definitely meet with students and probably have those conversations and don't know they are, but this is kind of the more formal responsibility that they were given. And we couldn't think of anyone better to talk with our our advisors as one of our presenters than you. So thank you again for for presenting.

Melinda Anderson  
No, no, you're welcome, you know. And I just have to give my hat and kudos to to you and your group of just the training experience overall. You know, when you kind of shared with me, you know each step that you're going to have in terms of a systematic approach to the way that you were supporting them and taking on this new role. Role, which, you know, oftentimes we don't do as institutions, right, like, you know, kind of do as I say, not as I do, right? But you guys are really walking the walk and saying, Okay, if this is a new service role, then how are we helping to support around professional development opportunities? And so, you know, I just thank you again for giving me an opportunity to be a part of that event. Because the reality, you know, in terms of not just degree attainment, right, but the idea that social mobility is often tied to degree attainment, and so when students sometimes hit an academic hiccup, right, and they're transitioning in different ways, you know, there are some skills right as advisors that we need in order to make sure that we're supporting each and every student, but then especially thinking about, how do we attune ourselves to those who are going through these academic transitions, just not just around motivation, right, but just understanding fit academically and tied to what it is that they're trying to achieve. So it was, it was a good time

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and I think connected to that during your presentation, one of the first things you shared was a quote from Terrell Strayhorn about and for you, is about academic advisors acting as cultural navigators. Why was that important to you to start off informing us about that?

Melinda Anderson  
No, I really love that question, Matt, because I love using his language. He, you know, he presented at a Nakata conference when we were in Minnesota, and I promise you, I was looking for Prince the whole time. I'm kidding. But you know, what I loved about his presentation was just that reality that advisors are sometimes the, you know, beyond faculty, right? That one person that is dedicated to supporting you and being very intentional on how you're experiencing the institution. And so when I talk to advisors, we always know that there's some students are like, well, you know, the university, right? But we also know it's like, well, who did you talk to, and what department was that, and who was the person in the department you talked to? But the reality is around cultural navigation, when we think about, and I, you know, joke about, you know, the bureaucracy of higher education, but you know, the truth of the matter is, is that every institution which is a people, right? Every institution is its people, but there's always a culture there. How do students know what to do, when to do it? What does that look like here? So even if you're transferring right, or if you're a first year start at that institution, leadership changes, policies change, you know, then procedures change, and then practices change. And so how do we help to continue to think about our practices in the field in a way that is consistently supporting students and getting them to where they need to be. And so he coins that phrase, well, that sentiment perfectly by saying that we're cultural navigators. We really are.

Matt Markin  
And you know, kind of with that, a lot of our students that might find themselves on some sort of academic probation, warning, dismissal. It could be for any number of reasons. You had also talked about with students, and when we're talking with them, it's really making sure that we're looking at it from like a growth mindset. And you had talked about kind of those differences between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset, even whether that might be how a student looks at or even as an advisor looks at it?

Melinda Anderson  
Absolutely, you know, I love that talk, you know. So Carol Dweck, you know, is become very, you know, I would say, I don't know, you know how the origins of fixer or growth mindset started, unfortunately, just off the top of my head. But when I think about like her, work has become famous, right, for this idea of, you know, fixed means x and growth means Y, and so I think it is important for us to think about when we say fixed mindset, the way that we think about when we're approaching a problem or a challenge. What does that actually look like in terms of when we say the differences between both? So the student that says math is hard, I've never been good in math, versus somebody saying I haven't been good in math. But I feel like this time, moving forward, I will be successful, and this is why these are the things I'm going to adapt to become different in terms of how I approach something that has normally challenged me in the past. And so I think about it from an advising perspective. When we hearing students, you know, say, hey, you know, maybe it was the professor that that their teaching style doesn't match my learning style, that was my favorite one, right? You know. Well, why is that? What are some things that you think you can do differently? How do you think about the way that you approach problems, right from if they're giving you answers that are fixed, and then how do we as advisors transition them to be thinking about them as growth mindset? So I always feel like that's an important way for us to think about how we frame conversations with our students.

Matt Markin  
And so I'm going to bring up so if you're watching on YouTube, I have an image here that Melinda had shared, and then I'll include it in the show. Don't know, listening to the audio version of the podcast, but it kind of has a breakdown of one side being the fixed mindset, one side being the growth mindset. Now on the fixed mindset side, and one of them says, receive criticism or feedback. And there could be some advisors that are saying, you know, when I meet with the student and I try to give them the information, or I try to dig deeper into why, maybe they didn't get a higher grade in a class, or, you know, whatever it might be, it seems like they're talking to a wall, right? Have any advice for an advisor if they're working with a student that might maybe be like that, right?

Melinda Anderson  
I do have some advice. I can give some guidance on how I approach it. You know, I always tell, you know, students and you know, staff and colleagues look, you know, I am, I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor, right? Mental Health Counselor by any means, right? I only play one on TV, right? But when I think about having this kind of conversation, a student says, you know, you know, I want to major in biology and I want to go to medical school, but I don't, like, you know, certain aspects of the the curriculum, right? So, like, I don't want to take calculus, or I don't want to do fill in the blank class, and so really just trying to tie them into saying, Do they understand how critically important it is for them to embrace the challenges that are coming forward? Because that's what makes a difference. So the example I think, that I gave in the session was that, you know, I worked with some nursing students when I was at a in a former role, and some of them were a little hesitant about taking statistics, you know, just concerned about, you know, how comfortable they felt, you know, in a math course, and I mentioned to them, if you were being taken care of by a nurse practitioner, you know, a nurse, you know, somebody with a clinical background, you would want them to know how to calculate, you know, formulas around, what type of medicines you need. You know, sometimes you have to do, you know, some formulas around, okay, if I patient weighs this much, how much medicine should they receive? Things of that nature. I'm speaking in generalities. So, you know, I'm just trying to protect you, Matt, so somebody's like, that's not what nurses but you know, the reality is, is that you would want somebody in that space to feel comfortable with that knowledge, right? And so sometimes we might tell ourselves that we can't do it. It's not something that we want to face. But when you think of the larger goal of what you're trying to achieve, then yes, you you would want somebody to feel informed and to feel comfortable and confident in that work and so helping them see the bigger picture. Things that you know may seem really big right now when you think about how it shows up long term, it's like, yeah, I would totally want somebody to feel comfortable being able to do those calculations in order to make sure that I continue to be well. And so then it's like, Oh, I get it. Okay, I see. You know I need to go into this experience understanding how this is going to help me become a better professional or to be successful in my major, right? So that was just like one example in terms of how I would kind of turn the situation around, from fixed to growth, you know, kind of playing into the idea of, like career pursuits as as they move forward earlier, and then, you know, I think overall, just confidence levels. I think from an academic perspective, there might be things or that we've experienced as academics or students, scholars or, you know, fill in the blank. And so how do we, you know, if we felt like we were knocked down before, you know, how do we grow confidence right in our advisees when they're experiencing that again? And so I think of, for example, like adult learners coming back to school, knowing that they need the degree, knowing that they need to be successful. You know, whether it's social mobility, whether it is, I've always wanted to pursue this dream that I've had, and this is kind of reminding them about the goal that they have ahead, and saying you're here for a reason. You know, what are some ways that we can kind of move kind of move around these obstacles so, you know, you don't defeat yourself before you even get started. 

Matt Markin  
And of course, one of those obstacles could just be them feeling like, oh my goodness, I'm on this thing called academic probation, right? And so they may get that email or that phone call, and it's like you're on probation. You need to meet with them. What does that mean? Oh, my God, dismissed. Am I in trouble? Am I not good enough? So you know, when they meet with the advisor, they might have all these kind of preconceived notions and feelings of what it is. What do you feel the role is of an advisor when they first meet with the student who might be listed as a student that's on some sort of probation or warning?

Melinda Anderson  
Well, definitely, I encourage all advisors to think about, for example, when a student is showing up into that space. Number one, you're right, the feeling of, I. Did I not do I not belong here? Am I ever going to be successful? You know, like I mentioned earlier, confidence issues. Is this a sign that's telling me right, that I'm moving in the wrong direction? And so I think trying to understand how that student is kind of coming into that experience helps us mirror hope and helps us think through. How do I help build up confidence in this situation. So I think about, for example, if I was in the student's shoes, right, what are the things that I would want my advisor to hear that are going to build breed, you know, encouragement and support. But I also think that sometimes institutions right, like the idea of like probation and warning, like our language, right? Even our language. And I'm not saying that calling an apple banana doesn't make it an apple, right? I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, is that if we're framing things like, okay, so you you know you're experiencing some some challenges. You know you are having some academic transitional issues into this space and just thinking differently about how we're even writing and crafting letters, right? And so I know that many schools, you know, colleagues, have mentioned to me that they're even changing, like their language of saying academic probation to something else that still gets the point across in terms of the language that they're using, but it doesn't come across as punitive, right? Like you're in a situation because you've experienced some academic difficulty, right? You're, you're, you're having a period of academic transition. And so what we need to do is to talk about, what are your next steps? And I think that we can, we think about it from a growth mindset perspective of, why is it important for us to have this conversation? Because where it is that you're headed whether that is like, you know, Matt, we know that there's some majors that have GPA requirements that are beyond the idea of just graduating Right. Like this is in your best interest to have a conversation, because you won't be able to graduate in this major with this GPA right? And then there's even scholarship situations, right? Like your scholarship might have GPA requirements around that. And so sometimes just having these conversations can be empowering, in terms of letting a student know what they have control on, but then, more importantly, around policies, around fit for major or minor, in terms of tying it back. Because I always tell people, majors and careers aren't linear, right? With the exception of like accounting, you know what I mean, and I'm sure that there's others that I won't name, but I think it is important for people to not feel like it's a label or it's an identity of who you are, but it describes what happened, right? It describes what it what you've experienced in one particular semester, and to treat it like an event, right? And, like I said, not to own it in the sense that that's your identity as a student. 

Matt Markin  
I definitely want to come back to the terminology part, because I think I have a couple more questions on that. But one thing I do want to ask and your opinion with with your advisor, your experience that working with students is appointment time. Most, I would say, most advisors gonna say, I have 30 minutes with the students. So if this student is on some sort of academic probation warning or notice and they're coming in for that appointment, yes, one we're trying to address, you know what happened? We're trying to explain what the policies are. But depending on that student's situation, you know if something terrible happened and it, you know, what resources do we offer? Or is it, you know, trying to explain time more time management, or whatever it might be, I'm trying to squeeze all this information into 30 minutes. But then, if I try to maybe do a follow up, will the student return back that appointment? What should I go over? Am I trying to get everything in and overwhelm them, like maybe sometimes during orientation, they might feel that way. Yes, any any advice that that you have from your experience working with students, right?

Melinda Anderson  
So you know you're absolutely right. Matt, you know you so you know orientation, we always joke about just like drinking from a fire hose and you won't and you won't remember anything that's going on. And so then the question becomes, do cat, how can we offload this information? Right? Do we have a canvas or a Blackboard website where we have the student go through complete documents, and they show up to the meeting with the documents, and we're all ready to go, and then students show up and they're like, Oh, I forgot, and I didn't print it out, and I don't have it. And so you're absolutely right about time, because, you know, just like if you were going to a doctor's office, right, you know, you have your general practitioner, and then they offer you to a specialist, right? If there's something that you know needs closer attention. And I think that you're right we we, unfortunately, sometimes allot the same amount of time based on the number of students we have, not necessarily what it is the work that we're doing with that student. And so I do recognize that that's often a challenge that institutions face. In my situation, you know, I worked at a large, you know, r1 institution in Virginia, and so, you know, had students on a general caseload around pre health, right? But you. Know what was going to come when you're walking into that office. And so oftentimes, you know, working with students who were on probation or or academic warning at the time, and for me, I felt like I needed to be number one relationship oriented, because you're right. You know, they leave your office. You know, are they you know, is their heart saddened because of their experience? They feel like they're going to give up. And if you don't pay attention or attune yourself to the idea of building a relationship while you're trying to go over all the information, it's it's critical, right? You may not ever see that student again, especially if they're not required to see you in any way. So the way that I try to break down a 30 minute meeting is, you know, a five minute getting to know you, what you're interested in how to get to know you the next 10 minutes, of course, is around policies and procedures. Because, as an advisor, it is critical that we help people understand what is required, right, for you to be to basically, you know, restore to the institutions, policies or you know, you know, and being in good academic standing, right? We know that, you know, SAP Satisfactory Academic Progress. You know what I mean in terms of financial aid? You know, I had a lot of served a lot of students that were on financial aid, so it was really critical to make sure I got those policy pieces in. And then the next five minutes I would say, what questions do you have for me? And then the end of the appointment was always okay. So looking at what you've registered for next semester versus what you need to repeat, you know, how those things work. And then, basically, I always want to offer, you know, teach a man a fish is kind of what I do. So let's talk about GPA calculation, right? What do you need in order to, you know, for example, depending on what your GPA is, you may need two semesters based on what you're planning to take in order to to restore that. And so just helping them kind of go through GPA calculations and what that looks like, and then follow up information and all in an email, right? Because it can be overwhelming, and so you want to be able to go back to something. But what I hope in those 30 minutes is that you built a relationship with the student that says, I care about you. I want you to be successful here. I want you to know what your opportunities are. I want you know what your options are, but then you know also helping them understand that you can do these calculations as well. I'm not the only magic right on the scene that can kind of help you with that, although I know it can be confusing, but I'm going to be honest. I agree with you that sometimes 30 minutes isn't enough, and you may not be able to pull that student back in. And so I always try to think of, how do you create, you know, a hierarchy, if you will, about the information that you need to make sure that you get out more so immediately. But I always encourage people to never forget about the relationship building piece, because people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And that is just something that I grew up, you know, being raised on and believe heartily, because even if they don't remember what I said, they'll be like I remember that she really did care about me. So let me reach back out. But I know that it is a tough thing to manage, especially if you have larger case loads. 

Matt Markin  
And you know, we were talking about terminology. I know there's an article from Inside Higher Ed from last year. Then they talked about Cal State Fullerton making that change, going from getting rid of the terminology for probation, and they kind of wanted to do a spin of making it more of a positive change for a negative label. So, like, you know essentially what you've been talking about, and in a way that their hope is that students feel less defeated by getting rid of that term. And in not only removing that terminology from anywhere it's written or on the website or the catalog or whatnot, but also that staff and faculty aren't using those those terms as well. But there might be some individuals that might think, Well, I'm so used to this is how it is. But if we get rid of probation and we call it warning or notice, right, will the students actually show up for that appointment? Or will they really know what the what it is, or is it too positive, right?

Melinda Anderson  
No, that's actually a brilliant question, you know. I remember reading that article too, and and then there was another book that I think I shared with your group, and it was about psychologically attuned language, right around these concepts of warning and probation, you know. And I think that I even mentioned too that, like the idea of Warning Probation, right, sets up a sense of urgency, right? Like this is important warning, right, probation, right, like that last step right before your you know, expulsion kind of thing. And I know that institutions do you want at any time to let people know? Number one, this is your status at the institution. Rightly, these things are critical and they're urgent. So I do agree with you. If you say, notice, people might be like, Oh, well, thank you for informing me. I really appreciate that, right? But the reality is like, no, there's something going on, and you need to do something about that. That. And so I think that if you are changing language, you're right, it has to be something culturally that you know the institutions, from faculty, from staff, right? Administrators are all thinking differently about the culture that they're trying to create around this idea of, like, how, how growth happens in academic transitions, right? Sometimes when you don't meet your academic goals, right? There's a lot of learning that comes from that. And so I think that if you are using language that is, you know, how are you operating differently, right? What are the strategies that you're using, utilizing differently, things that kind of speak like I said, from a growth mindset lens, I think that you can still get urgency across, but it's, it's the language is not as defeatist, where you feel like you have no options and you have no place to go. And so it is interesting hearing people talk about how they're changing the language on their campus.

Matt Markin  
Tied to that also is the idea of, do you put a hold, a registration Hold on a student, or not? Of course there's, you know, the for advising. You know, general advising. Do you put a hold on them? But I think even in this case for, let's say, a student that is on some sort of notice or probation status, the thought is, well, if we put a hold on them, they're more inclined to come in. If we don't, then we think they may not come in. What are your thoughts on that?

Melinda Anderson  
Oh, I love this debate, because the reality is, for example, we oftentimes put holds on for students, for like, parking right, or library fines or things that are happening in the residence halls, right, like the ideas, like, in order to make this student pay attention, we are going to either lock down registration or, you know, you take away some other service level, right with a hold. And so sometimes people are just like, No, I just really want this student to come in and they can't move forward without having a conversation with me. So I understand why right holds are used in order to create urgency. Number one, like, if you want to register for classes next semester, you need to come in and see me, and then number two, like, sometimes students really just don't know right until they get ready to register. Then they're like, oh my gosh, I can't thank you for letting me know. I don't know how I missed it, you know? And we all know we had 1000 emails, so it is possible, right? But there's also the reality too. Like, are we growing good academic behaviors? You know, I don't want to spend too long here. But, for example, when we are orientation over first trend seminar, right? The idea that, do you know how to look at your academic record, check your academic history, right? How are you, you know, logging into Canvas and you're taking, you know, checking your grades. How are you thinking about the percentage of totals right to your your transcript, so that people know, like, okay, so I got an A, but that was a quiz, right? And then I got a C, you know, and that was a midterm, right? So that the weight of the grades are going to be different, right? What I have found to be and, you know, I wish I had a different answer, but I have seen holds work well and making sure that students are at least talking to somebody to understand what's going on. I think the impact around that is enrollment issues, right? So, for example, I can't re register. I'm already defeated. Something else is already going on in my life, which is what caused me to not do well this academic semester. This is confirmation. I just need to go. So I do struggle with that a little bit in terms of when you have a whole blocking registration, and it seems to always be the carrot, right? Like, I remember being in orientation services and being like, Okay, you're going to go through the whole day, and then at the end of the day, it's getting your classes right. And that's the carrot that makes sure that you participate in time, in terms of the entire day, I think it is important that we start building good academic behaviors from the beginning to the end, and relationships are always critical to that. So I think depending on the culture at your institutions holds may be the best way to grab the attention. However, you know, if you have a campus that's very focused on the relational efforts of working with students, you know, students could enroll, right? But then they're always required to have an appointment with their academic advisor. So you don't need to put the whole hold on their accounts, right? If you're requiring that they see an academic advisor. So part of me just feels very torn on the issue, to be very honest with you, because in some instances I see that it works very well. It's also a way to kind of hold the institution accountable. Of saying was everybody informed of this information, nobody's caught off guard, nobody is surprised by what they're like when they can't register based on a hold. But then I've also seen campuses where it works really well. I'm in touch with my students. I see them all the time. I'm going to have the conversation, and so they are going to be informed. I take notes, and I put them in the system so that that information was shared. And so I will have to say, it depends on the culture of your campus, unfortunately, but I have seen both models work very. Well, depending on the school and how they are approaching the way that they're working with students.

Matt Markin  
No, I definitely agree. I mean, that that's why I was, like, I'm going to ask Melinda, because I don't think I I can give a direct answer to that, because I totally agree with you on that. I think it is something where it really just depends on the institution, the culture. But just like you're saying, if you're building that relationship from the very beginning, then students, at least know. I know who I can go to. I know I trust this person. I you know, even if I don't remember what the previous appointment we talked about, I know that I got something from that appointment, and I can go in and meet with this person and they'll help me out, especially if it's a question I have no idea where to go for it.

Melinda Anderson  
Yeah, no, I appreciate you asking me, but you know, I know people might have been leaning in like, Oh, how's she going to weigh in on that? But like I said, I've worked on several campuses, and so I've had that model at some and then I've not had that model at others, and we still did a pretty good job of connecting with our students either way,

Matt Markin  
Absolutely. And you know, you mentioned, also in in our training and your presentation, about five things that advisors working with students, no matter if they're on any sort of academic probation or not. But they the five things you mentioned were, you know, connection, support, being student centered. You also mentioned assessment and heart. Why those five specifically?

Melinda Anderson  
Well, when I think about... So, for example, I'll start with heart and so, when we talk about the value of higher education, right? How much it costs to get a degree, you know, I think it's just important that we remember our heart in our work, right? This is an individual, not just a number, this is a student, yes, but this could also be a parent, you know, a partner, a spouse. And so when you think about the other roles that students play in their lives, I think it is important for us to remember that our work is making a difference. And it's, it's, it's an in it's impacting the way people are showing up in the world and for their lives, right? And so I think hearts really important. I think remembering how we build right and grow support around students regard, you know, you know, regarding their various challenges, that avocation piece that advisors do very, very well, it's always going to be important to make sure that students understand that understand that they are being heard at various levels of the institutions, and we are being responsive. And when I think about assessment, I think it is very powerful for us to say what is working and what is not working, right. So if you're the campus that's like, Let's experiment, let's remove holes, right? Did it work? Was it better or worse than what you found before, right? And so, assessment, you know, what are the outcomes you're trying to achieve? What are the things that you're going to measure? You know? How are they indirect measures? You know, what are the things that you're going to be paying attention to in order to inform your practices and your policies moving forward? And sorry, Matt, you had two others, and I'm trying to remember.

Matt Markin  
So we've covered heart assessment, support, yes, support. So student centered and connection? 

Melinda Anderson  
So remaining student centered. So, like I mentioned earlier about social mobility, and so the idea, I always love asking this question, like, why did you go to school? And everybody's like, Oh, I went to school because of this, and my parents encouraged me, or I wanted to make a difference in the world. I wanted to do something different, you know, my my siblings, or, you know, I know others in my family that went to school. And the reality is that I don't, I've never come across anywhere that was like, I just wanted to become Socrates and deep think and, you know, and think deeply about the work that I'm doing like No, oftentimes it's tied to, you know, either a career pursuit or wanting to do something different, or social mobility, right? And so I think it is important for us to remember the student in the heart of our work, because they're here for a reason, right? I would love for somebody just to want to get a degree because they they want to learn something because they have they don't know it, right? Like I want to take, I want to get a degree in philosophy, right, that kind of thing. And shout out to my philosophy majors. But my point is that we know that students are coming to school for a reason, and it's not just about learning. And so I think being sensitive and paying attention to that, I think will help in those conversations around the value of a higher education, right, especially when you can point to social mobility outcomes. And I think the last one is around it was student centered. And then connection, connection, right? You can tell that we were really having a real conversation here. Connection. I mentioned earlier that when students come to an institution, right, you hear them say, XYZ school, right? Whether the experience was good or bad, right? They named the whole school. And so I think being real in terms of relationships, it's important that. So anytime that you're connecting with the student, they are talking not just about you or your office, but the institution or college, you know, overall. And I think it is important for us to remember that institutions are its people, right? And you can't get around that, you know. And so when we keep that in mind, we operate in a way that we keep that in the forefront in terms of our interactions and how we we work to support people, or how we provide direction, or how we give advice, in how we culture become cultural navigators, right? So I think it is important for us to keep that in mind as we're doing this work.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, and everything ties back to being cultural navigators, and as we end this, this interview, I've been asking a lot of guests about their wellness that that they do. So I'm gonna ask you what, what do you do for your wellness?

Melinda Anderson  
For my wellness, for my well being, my mental and physical well being. Well, I know that many of your listeners might have known, you know, that there was a, you know, some personal things that I was going through, you know, when I made the decision to step down. But I would say that definitely what I've been practicing lately. Oh, so I try to walk at least two miles a day, you know, I listen to, you know, sermons or podcasts, you know, just really trying to focus on my spiritual wellness at this point, a lot more than I have in the past. And it's made a tremendous impact in terms of, you know, how I how I see the world, my lenses, right, are being re informed. And then when I think about definitely spending time with friends, I think sometimes we might just get so caught up in either work or things with our family. Right to spend times around to spend time around people who love us for who we are is so, so amazing in the way that I think about your you know, from a heart space perspective, right to just show up as you are and to be accepted. Everybody wants to be valued. Everybody wants to be accepted and appreciated. So definitely trying to catch up with old friends and just check on people like I had one of my friends that said, Look, if you're the strong friend, you really need people to check up on you, right? Because you're always the person that's checking up on others. And so I always encourage people like reach out and connect with people who you think happened? You know, you haven't heard from in a long time, and it will make a tremendous difference in your day. And the last one I would say, in terms of wellness, is that I actually went on a low sodium diet and dedicated to increasing my water, but whatever I was drinking, I try to double it for the the following week. And my sister's a nurse, and she'd always joke me like people don't drink enough water, but it's true. Like when I started drinking more and more water, like it's it just made a definite difference in the way that. You know my skin feels, you know my sleep quality, like it's crazy. Like when you when you're dehydrated, you don't realize how dehydrated you are, right? But then when you become hydrated, you're like, Oh, I never want to live that life again. So those are some practical things. So I'd say drink water, connect with your friends. Definitely move your body, you know, move, you know, get that blood flow and get that bug pumping. And I'm not saying that you have to go out and get a gym membership, like just walking around your neighborhood for 1520, minutes a day. It really does make a huge difference.

Matt Markin  
A great way to end this. And I look forward to having you on future episodes and get to co host with me again.

Melinda Anderson  
Absolutely Matt. Thank you for having me. It's just been wonderful being able to have this conversation with you. And I hope the audience is able to, you know, take away some things that are going to make a difference in their practice.