Leading Efforts to Close Equity Gaps - Adventures in Advising

Ep. 78's interview is with Dr. Shonda Goward, Associate Vice Provost for Undergraduate Advising and Success at San José State University. 

Shonda discusses having to think large scale to be systematic and hands-on in order to close equity gaps, as well as a community cultural wealth framework to help students succeed in college. 

How does an advisor's role play into all of this?

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hey and welcome back to another episode of The Adventures in Advising podcast. My name is Matt Markin, and I'm thrilled that you are here with us today as I get to interview the wonderful Dr. Shonda Gowared. Dr. Goward is the Associate Vice Provost for Undergraduate advising and success at San Jose State University, where she leads 10 Student Success Centers in closing equity gaps. Shonda, welcome to the podcast.

Shonda Goward  
Good morning, Matt, thank you for having me. 

Matt Markin  
Glad that you're here. I know you know, we were previously in the at the region eight, 910, conference in Vegas, and got to do a panel together with Cecilia and Teri, who were two guests on one of our previous episodes. And so I'm glad that you're here. We get to chat with you, and so we're going to get one get started with tell us about yourself, what's been your background in higher ed and getting to San Jose State?

Shonda Goward  
Sure, I got into higher ed. Like many other people, I was doing one thing, and then I wanted to that wasn't quite working, and I wanted a degree, and didn't want to pay for it. And I kind of got into the field. So I when I left college, I went to Bristol, Connecticut, and was working at ESPN, and 9/11 happened, and I was at work that day, and we talked about football all day. Are they going to play NFL and college football the following weekend? And for me, I was like, Is this what we're talking about when our country's on fire? And I did stay another two years because I really wanted to make a career in journalism work, and I just realized it wasn't for me. And my really strong, formative experience in college was with my English professor. And I'd always loved reading and writing and and I was like, I want to be like Doctor James Coleman. I want to be an English professor. So I went back to get a master's degree to do that. And fortunately, I went to a fantastic regional institution southern Connecticut State, and those faculty were like, Baby, there's no jobs in English. As for professors, are you sure you want to go down this track when you're a first generation low income person? Is this the right thing? Because most of the department was contingent lecturers. They were like, don't be like us. Do something else. But I was already in the program. Already in the program, and I got a position as a part time academic advisor, and so I stayed in, and I was like, Well, this is interesting. I'm still I'm helping students like myself who are trying to navigate this thing. And so that was enjoyable. Then I got a research fellowship. So I was like, hmm, okay, let me think about this, but I graduated, and I got a job at a nonprofit. Was working for Girl Scouts, and I enjoyed that, but something kept calling me back to higher ed. So then I started when I had moved to DC, I started my career in admissions. It was on the road, and from there, I went from admissions to academic advising to some kind of quasi roles in between, leading some programs that were part Student Affairs, part advising, part admissions, and then a little bit in financial aid and back to advising. Actually, they ran a tutoring center in between there. So I've been all over, mostly handling in academic affairs.

Matt Markin  
I mean, anything a little more to the story too. It's like, you know your educational background, you're talking about places that you've attended, but if we're just talking about, like, degrees, you know, you double majored, what, in Journalism and Mass Comm, you know, in political science. And like, you were talking about your your MA in English, and then then higher ed administration for your doctorate, and then all the different areas that you've worked in, so you kind of have a little bit of everything that, I think in your role now can definitely help out with, with what you do. And I guess let's roll into that you're at San Jose State University. Talk about your role, like, what? What's your day to day? 

Shonda Goward  
It's challenging. We're really, you know, our provost and now our new president. We're looking at how San Jose State can be better. So when the initiative advising reorganization started, our provost looked at some surveys, not from from NACADA. We had a Nakata team that came out and, you know, they said we had some areas of growth in academic advising. WASC, our crediting body said, Hmm, y'all have some work to do here. The student survey said the same thing. So the Provost said, Okay, we need to act. We need to actually do something about that. So at the time, the advising centers reported in different areas. Two of them were in student affairs, and then the other eight that were in the colleges reported to the associate deans in the colleges under the reorganization all 10 of those so eight colleges, exploratory students and student athlete Resource Center report to me, and my role is one to complete that. Reorganization, get our advising community thinking about advising as a profession rather than transactional work. So getting to more into developmental advising, coordinating our resources so that our team has more time for that. So part of the reason why central estate wasn't doing it is just because everyone was doing their own thing. So no one had a real budget. So now under one umbrella, I have to figure out, how do I deploy these resources? And those resources could be dollars. It could also be people like, how do we make sure we hire enough folks to support our our students in the right way? It means thinking about the student to advisor ratio. One of the goals of the reorg was to get first and second year advisor ratio to student ratio down to 275, to one. Now I'm working on getting the upper division ratio down to 500 to one. We also have a split model here, where lower division is done by professional staff and upper divisions done by faculty. So having those conversations with faculty be about what is developmental advising? How do we do that work? How do we use all the tools on campus? There's about four different systems we have to log into to support a student in an advising appointment. It's a lot, and sometimes for the faculty can get overwhelming, which I get, because it's like, what are all these systems they don't have to work in every day. And so right now, it's just kind of rebuilding, well, building what is undergraduate advising and success, because success is the retention part, and we haven't even gotten fully there yet. Right now, I'm still trying to build the team. We were impacted by the great resignation. And there are some folks who also, you know, had been at the institution for a very long time, and this was the direction we're going is not necessarily what they wanted to do. So we've lost a lot of folks, so I'm filling in those gaps now and building out what is our future going to look like. So my day to day is a lot of meetings. I do most of my work, work at night after the day is done, because I'm I sit on committees for enrollment. I sit on committees with the associate deans and thinking about how can advising support the work that's going in the colleges. I sit on the academic leadership team with the provost, so that's the Vice Provost and the Deans. I'm in meetings with our student affairs colleagues, whether it's about tutoring or about the cultural centers. I'm meetings with my own team. So I'm in meetings all the time about something or other, and then, like, the nitty gritty of it gets done in the night. For now, long term, I have to build some kind of well being and success sustainability for myself. But this, you know, this is where we are with a a massive reorganization. I think it's going to take another year for us to stabilize.

Matt Markin  
You know, for me as an advisor, I don't see any of that. I just hear it kind of trickle down. So, you know, I know there's got to be so much more that that goes onto it. And one of the other things that you're responsible for, you know, aside from having to meet and put all this together, you know, you're leading these Success Centers, making sure that you know they're following what, what the goals, the mission is, but you're also in charge of closing equity gaps. So with everything that you're doing, and I'm sure there's a lot of connections too, with all this, how are you leading those efforts?

Shonda Goward  
So it's really thinking about work, our work systematically, rather than individually. So I think historically advising was we want to do the one on one thing. If you've ever seen Animaniacs, the cartoon where the Animaniacs is like, I want to hug them and squeeze them and love them and call them George. We want to hug our students through the challenges they experiences that they graduate. The problem is, on a campus with 30,000 undergraduates, you cannot one on one, everybody to student success. You have to think, how do we redesign things so that our work reaches more people? So two big things I've taken on this year. One is redesigning Cal promise with the deans, the associate deans. So Cal promise, as you probably know, is a program that is encouraging students to complete 15 units every semester so that they can graduate on time. And it's for racially, racially minoritized students and or Pell eligible students. This is a state program we are required to do it. What we're doing in the fall is some of our college we're piloting a piece to this where we're not just talking one on one with students about 15 units. We are piloting a space where students who opt into Cal promise will be offered classes that they're block enrolled into with faculty who have volunteered to do this and really want to work with first year students. We know from the literature that first year students need that connection with faculty to learn how to navigate the institution, and for the institution to say, we're reaching out to you, and for the faculty to get to hear from the students and from the students to learn how to interact with the faculty. So. In about half of our colleges, they'll have this experience where they're intercourse with faculty who have agreed to be trained in how to best support first year students of color and who are and or low income. Students will have not only connections with the faculty in the classroom, but at least two outside connections as well, to kind of be a little bit more informal, where I'm working currently with Student Affairs, to also have a specific learning community for those students, so that they get the support they need. And then in their second semester, they will be offered the opportunity to take a course called UNZS 101 which is offered through with San Jose State and Braven, a nonprofit, and that course is really a career accelerator and helps students think about what is it that they want to do, and how does that translate out in the world once they graduate and they come out with this amazing portfolio. So we really want to do more in a large scale, to be systematic and hands on with our incoming first year students. The other thing on the other side is I'm working on redesigning academic probation. So right now, every college does something differently, and we're trying to standardize. And the program I'm looking at creating started at San Jose, San Diego, state in 2003 and was replicated at UNC Chapel Hill, my alma mater. So I got to work on that program, and I saw how it worked, and I've been looking at the literature on it. We've tweaked it a bit for our students when we're using a community, cultural wealth framework. So this is this morning. I'm finishing up a federal grant request to help us fund this program, which will have a Canvas course where students will learn skills that can help them be successful in the university, and how their community cultural wealth will help them succeed at the university. That's not something they have to leave behind. It's something we want at San Jose State. These students will also be required to meet with their academic advisor at least twice in the semester, and then the most important thing intervention is they'll be meeting bi weekly with clinicians and training. These are students in the Masters of Social Work and psychology program that are going to be overseen by someone with a license. And in those meetings, they will receive coaching to think about again, what is the right degree program for you? What are your goals? What are your interests, and how can you achieve them through the curriculum here at San Jose State, what can we do as an institution to support you, to get you back on track? Those course, those students who successfully returned to academic good standing will also be encouraged to take the UN vs 101, Braven course, if and if they don't, and they reach prb two, which is our second level of academic probation, where you have a improved your GPA, but you're not really back to good standing. They those students will also be potentially offered the chance to take the course. So we're really thinking about equity in a really large scale, and putting dollars behind it while applying for dollars to put behind it where we can. So that's what we are responsible for, contributing to closing equity gaps by thinking differently about how we serve students on mass.

Matt Markin  
Oh, yeah. And with the career accelerator course, is that like, does that also count towards like, baccalaureate level credit or towards credit bearing courss?

Shonda Goward  
It's an elective, but it is a credit bearing course.

Matt Markin  
And with the faculty that have kind of signed on to participate in this, has a response been pretty positive for faculty, saying, hey, I want to help out with this?

Shonda Goward  
It is especially for certain general education courses. That's what we're working with. And so once we were able to, you know, work with the associate deans, to think about, well, who might best serve in this role, and they reached out to the so the partnership with the colleges, the associate deans reached out to the faculty in their colleges. Thought about the classes that would work because they need to be general education, classes that would fit in any degree plan. We're an impacted campus, meaning that some majors are very strict and they have a very defined roadmap, so these courses need to be able to fit in multiple roadmaps, and it needed to be faculty who had the time and dedication to this kind of work with students. And we were very fortunate to find those faculty, and like I said, we'll pilot it in the fall, and if it works, then we're going to hope to hope to expand it to the rest of our colleges.

Matt Markin  
Oh, wonderful. And I guess what? Like the kind of like the block scheduling with some of these GE classes. So the block scheduling is more so like the GE classes, and then, depending on the student's major, they'll also graduation wise, if they're looking for a timely graduation, they'll also throw in some of their like intro major courses as well.

Shonda Goward  
Exactly. So the block only has one or two classes, and then they'll choose the rest of their remaining courses. This is opt in, so students know, in fact, we're getting the letter out letting students know that they're eligible for this what it is when the classes are offered and that they want us and let them know they want to sign up. This is so Cal. Promises post is for transfer students and first year students, but we're piloting with first year students, because transfers have a much narrow window to graduate on time. They've got those two years, they've really got to focus. So if this goes well, then we want to figure out how to adapt to transfer students, because it'd be a bit different. The other thing that Cal Promise students receive on our campus is early registration, so they register a few hours before the rest of the people in their cohort, so they have to remain on track to graduate in order to receive that benefit. So it's kind of just wrapping students around in with support as they walk in the door. 

Matt Markin  
Wow, that's another side. I think maybe in a year's time, we'll have you back on the podcast. Say, Hey, what's happened? Yeah, what can you share? Because I'm sure a lot of institutions that might be looking at ways, how do we close these equity gaps? Might be like, this seems like a wonderful way. Seems like a lot of stress get putting this together for a pilot, but it it almost seems like this will definitely be well worth it. 

Shonda Goward  
I was figuring out, how do we use something that already we wanted to close equity gaps, but we didn't want to target students of color or low income, students like, Hey, you something's wrong with you. Cal promise was already there, and it already opt in, and it's already set up for these students who self identify. So I had to think about, how do we use what we already have to get to the aims and redesign it for the aims that we want to achieve.

Matt Markin  
Now, I guess, from like an advisor perspective, like, you know, when, when we hear closing equity gaps, sometimes, you know, it depend on institution, it might be thrown out as, like the buzzword of the year, the month to use. But like from an advisor, who's, you know, meeting with students, and is thinking, Well, do I need to change up how I'm doing something, or I'm meeting with the student, or, I guess, even just professional development training, any advice for for an advisor?

Shonda Goward  
I think one thing that could help advisors is going, you know, when many of us have degrees in higher ed administration, and then we stop reading in the literature the minute we graduate, and making sure we stay up to date, this is where the faculty and the staff have to collaborate, because they're doing all this research work. And then sometimes we build our Praxis on how we feel, rather than the data. And so learning to read your institutional data, learning to read, okay, what is out there, as far as my particular population of students, and how I can best support them, even if you don't have a ton of you know, I haven't always had a ton of professional development dollars, you can still join in on an acado webinar or connect with someone else at another institution. I think sometimes in California, because we're so huge, we were like, We're the biggest, and they're like, but we can be the best, and we should strive for that. And sometimes that means going outside of the state, and sometimes that means listening to other folks who have done some things, and then think about, well, how does that work? At my institution, we don't want to just graph something that's worked here, over here, but there are things we can take from that based on the principles and the framework that we're using. So our advising framework, we're basing it on some work that was done in the community colleges. They're way ahead of us on equity. Might as well go learn from somebody who's doing it well. And the framework we're using has been empirically tested at at community colleges and now some four years. So thinking about that, then it's also thinking about, okay, what are the what are the supports that are needed in on my campus or in my college? However you're advising model is set up. Sometimes, one on one, advising is absolutely what is needed. Sometimes we can do things in groups like registration is massive, and it's always stressful for advisors, doing some group advising about the classes to get the transactional work out of the way, allows us to then spend some time doing one on one work in a way that's a bit more meaningful and helps students make meaning between their careers, who they are, who they want to I mean their curriculum, who they are, who they want to be, and eventually, their careers. Right? We know that learning and development isn't just about a career, but that's a huge part of it. So thinking about, well, if I can get, if I can do the transactional part easily, how do what did I do? I want those advising appointments to look like what do we want to achieve in those appointments? Yes, some of it is about getting resources out there for students who are struggling, but also don't forget those students in the middle. I think we often forget the students who have a 2.0 to a 3.0 and it's like, okay, they're they're fine. They're not struggling, per se, but that doesn't mean that they don't still need support. And then our high flyer students, let's make sure we're abreast of things for them. What does the Undergraduate Research look like on your campus, and how do they get involved? Do you have people who want to apply for Fulbright Fellowships? And are we reaching out to those students with those strong GPAs to make sure it's. They're not missing opportunities, and that they're okay. The work of Bridget Turner Kelly has always told me, I went to ash, the Association for the Study of Higher Education A while ago, and I heard this presentation of her work, and I'll never forget her talking about people ignoring black women because black women, she said that the students felt like they had the grades, but they didn't have well being so just because a student is performing well doesn't mean that they're okay, and we're seeing that unfortunately in the rate of students taking their own lives on campus, I've seen it in my own time with students with 3.73 GPAs who have harmed themselves, and everybody's going well, they had everything going for them. Clearly, they didn't, and we missed it. And advising is a place where we can catch that. It doesn't mean that we have to address it. We have our very capable colleagues in Counseling and Psychological Services, but, but not assuming that everyone's okay is a huge thing as well. 

Matt Markin  
Yeah, a lot of too in those advising appointments is how much the student wants to information, student wants to give, but also what kind of questions the the advisor asks and how, how much they dig deep into that. And I think that's also kind of a challenge. I think with some advisors is, do I feel comfortable doing that? Or, you know, how do I react? But I think it's also knowing about, yeah, what resources are available that they could encourage a student to maybe use, but also just kind of having that friendly environment as well, so student feels comfortable to be able to talk to an advisor?

Shonda Goward  
Absolutely and building rapport over time. You know, we don't have to wait to registration to reach out to students or wait till we get an early alert or notification, as we changed our term from alert to notification, we don't have to wait till we get one. And if we think of a student, I saw this opportunity and thought you might be interested in this, or it could be multiple students. I saw this opportunity and thought it might be good for all students in Kinesiology. And just sending it out, it shows the students that we're paying attention.

Matt Markin  
Now the caseload model that you were referring to earlier, is that something too that starts in fall, or is that something that is already going on right now?

Shonda Goward  
So that we started the SAS model, which is the lower division at 275, to one, and we're hoping to get to the upper division, 500 to one. Caseload is the challenge with hiring. You know, San Jose State is a very expensive area, and our salaries are not kept up to to the area. And that's just a result of the CSU, this California State University system as a whole, and we just happen to be caught in a really, really expensive space. So it's hiring folks that can fill those roles. And you know, when you have a lot of change, people are like, What is going on over there? Do I want to work there? Right? And so part of it for me is, I've been at a lot of conferences recruiting just like, this is who I am as a leader. This is the kind of work that we're doing moving forward. If that's what you're interested in, I would love to, you know, have you apply to a role on my team.

Matt Markin  
Speaking of being like in this advisor, Administrator role, being in this leader role, I'm sure you know you've have lessons that that you've learned about yourself and the staff that you've supervised. So I guess over over these years, what have you learned about yourself as an administrator?

Shonda Goward  
Ooh, it changes. Being home in California has been really, really interesting, because it's a very different world than the East Coast. And in some ways, I think it's because, again, we're so big and we're out here on a whole different time zone that we don't interact with other folks that often. So I think that the East Coast is ahead of us in a lot of respects. And so for me, starting my career east and coming west, I've had to slow down, and I'm still working to slow down and bring my team with me on the track. The things that we're trying to do, knowing that folks are already struggling with capacity coming out of covid like higher ed never stopped. And it's one thing that frustrates me as a whole, is that we really didn't have a chance to go this was a really challenging thing that we all went through. And can we have a breather and get before we get back to it? And that doesn't happen in advising, especially because advising is on for every aspect of the work, like we start with helping admissions with yield all the way through orientation, there's no real break in there. So I've had to think about, how do I support the team in taking breaks? I try to take my vacation days so they see that I am busy all the time, but I still get in some days away from the office, empowering my team to step up as leaders when I'm out of the office. You're the administrator in the charge, as long as it's not the budget, make a decision. You know, don't spend any money we don't have. But other than that, thinking about our systems and structure. So this. Year, I had to talk with the new student and family programming team. I was like, our advisors cannot crush we can't have orientation all the way up to the time school starts, because there's no time for advisors to breathe before they have to get into the academic year and then registration. So for me, I had to remind myself, as I'm thinking about systems for closing equity gaps, I need to think about systems for supporting my team, especially when you know we're not a place where we can provide raises. So now we have a three week gap between the end of orientation and start of classes. That's great for my team. They get to breathe, take some vacation. They can also help solve student problems for students who register for the wrong classes, things like that. It's building in some I've had to think about systems and building in some ladders like folks are leaving the institution because they don't see where they can grow. So we've got some assistant director positions that are coming that will do some work that we need. And it's also a career ladder for our team. It's really thinking about, I got to think about, what does it mean to be at a regional public institution? I started my full time advising career, or my full time admissions career at a private institution, and I worked at private schools for a while, and it's a very different thing, especially private tuition dependent institutions, because they have to move fast, because if they don't, they lose revenue. We're different. And working through those systems and those relationships, I'm very much an analytical thinker. Thinking through the relationships is a challenge for me, and I've had to work on that in the 19 months I've been here. And you know, you can have all the numbers you want. That doesn't mean folks fulfilling. You're hearing what they're saying. It's a continual thing for me to develop and work on as a leader. 

Matt Markin  
And you're mentioning about staff maybe leaving. You're talking about career ladders, talking about budget so I guess. And this is a question we asked during the panel at the region eight, 910, conference in Vegas and back in March, early March, and that was kind of, when do you take a risk on employees, especially if you have some employees that might be looking to move up, and maybe there is a possible position, but then it's like, but Then I'll have, I don't have so much budget, so could I hire more staff? So in a position like yours, where you're having to deal with so many different things and also retention of employees, how do you navigate that?

Shonda Goward  
It's a real challenge. Because even though I'm an AVP and I'm a senior most person in advising. I'm a middle leader when it comes to the campus. So when I go to academic leadership team, I'm very junior, right? Everyone in that room is a V, is a vice provost or Dean, which is a level above me. And so I the budget I have is the budget I have. And so right now I'm trying to, I'm navigating this very thing right now where I know that folks need more money to live in the area that we live in, and we haven't been able to provide professional development dollars in a year because I need to solidify the budget across all 10 centers. We are working to develop some in house advising professional development. We're working to redesign our onboarding and our training, so we will have two different tracks, one for brand new advisors who've been with us less than two years, and one for folks who've been there over two years and they've got some skills and now they want to learn new things. Like one thing people really are asking me about is, well, how do I learn how to do assessment? Great, we're going to work on those skills. So how do we do things in house, where I can spend some money, I can, you know, hire someone to come work with us, and spend $5,000 where, rather than trying to send one person to a conference, and that's going to cost $2,000 right? And I can just bring somebody to us. So just thinking in those those terms, but it's, it's a constant struggle, just because higher ed is one of those labors that just doesn't pay well and retaining folks when folks are making other decisions, I had a staff member leave our job to go become an admin and a tech company and double their salary, and I can't compete against that. So it's really working with the folks who who are who want to do this work in this field, and figuring out how to support them, whatever that may be. So in some departments, I've got folks who are doing where we're really down and short staffed, I am giving them one time bonuses to cover the extra work that they're doing in some folks where I don't have directors, I have put people in as advising leads, so they get some time to learn what it's like to be a director, so they'll have that on their resumes, and they get a sense of do I really want to do this? So trying to think of as many opportunities to develop. Folks in house as we can is the is what I'm doing right now? 

Matt Markin  
And it's like, you have to work with what you have budget wise. I know I've had some colleagues that have left, and they went to the private sector, and they're like, Hey, Matt, I'm making so much more. And I'm like, oh my goodness, you know what I make that jump? I don't know. And then there's also even, like the the ones that wanted to work remote, and I've had a colleague, and she left a year ago and is loving it at the other institution that she's at, because she can be remote as an advisor five days out of the week.

Shonda Goward  
Yeah, and I don't have that capacity, right? I need having to say all the time, no, I can't do that, no. And trying to highlight for people, you know, what is it that we can offer? We serve a unique population of students that really needs, folks, the all that care and the concern that we have, I remind people that we are in the state of California, and we still have a pension, not a 401, K, but a pension. Now some of our staff who are not nearing retirement age. That doesn't resonate for them, but for those folks who are thinking about the long, long term, you know that that lifetime health care you can get in the CSU after working with us for a certain number of years, the fact that we have a guaranteed pension, for some folks, that does mean something. And so they're like, Okay, there's a trade off here. And they also know that I back them on wanting more money, if I the minute I get more money the minute I'm happy to give it to them. And so, you know, and I think our campus is that way as well. If the CSU or the governor says, Okay, here's more money for higher education and salaries, we would give them to them as soon as we can. So I think, you know, helping folks understand that I'm with you. I dig it. I know that if we could provide more, if I could provide more, I absolutely would.

Matt Markin  
And yeah, I agree with you about the CSU and the pension. I mean, I've 19 years will be this August that I've been staff. And so I'm like, oh gosh, I'm at that point where I feel like, if I were to leave, I'm like, I want to start all over again. I think I'm gonna stay.

Shonda Goward  
Yeah, my mommy, yeah, the one is gonna have to kick me out. 

Matt Markin  
And it's funny, like, a few years ago, I would never thought I'd be thinking about retirement, and I'm like, Oh yeah, I am getting older, and I'm still at an age where I can actually, technically, when I start, I can actually retire at 55 by one. It's probably not going to happen, but at least in my mind, it makes me happy that I have that as an option.

Shonda Goward  
As an option, yeah.

Matt Markin  
Now you've kind of, I think this kind of connects to things you've already said. But one of the other questions that we had asked during the panel was about like preparing those future leaders, but also succession planning, especially when we do retire or we move on, you know, maybe to another position, other institution. So for you is that something you're also thinking about is, you know, in 1015, years, or however long, bringing in or molding new leaders. You know, is that something that that you're you're considering?

Shonda Goward  
Yes, and it's something I think about with this actually started early in my career, when I was an advisor myself. I was in an advising unit, and this was at a time when people were starting families, and I promise you, every semester when one person would either they were pregnant or their spouse was pregnant, they would go out on a family leave and never come back. And this happened for like five people, and it got to a point where we were like, we have to create some redundancies here, because what's happening is those students, we had a one to one advisor, where we had a case load where students had one advisor, and then when that person would go out on leave, actually, it wasn't even just family leave. There were other leaves, medical things like that, that those students then had to be redirected to another person that they don't know. Have to tell their story all over again to and then if that person never came back, now, what do we do with that group of students are being placed with a brand new advisor that doesn't has to be trained, and it was just messy. And so one of the things we did at GW was I suggested a pod system where every student has not one but two advisors, and they know both of them, and they can see either one. So that way, if Bobby Sue is on vacation, then they can see Jamal, and so that everybody has their case. So now we're trying to build some redundancies into the system that also gives the advisors a break, right? They don't feel guilty about taking some days off. So that's number one building in. We don't have steps in the CSU system, so adding the assistant director role helps provide some of that unofficial step that also gives us the much needed leadership we need. Because in my unit, managing directors over to over support two different centers, so now we have someone who's getting some experience in their leadership development, but not responsible for the whole thing. So. Is working with the management team and pulling them in on projects. So this grant applying for with the federal government, one of the managing directors is involved in that application, so he can see what this looks like, and so that when he's when it's his turn, and he's ready to think about these large initiatives, he has experience in doing it, and it's like for me, this is all new for me. I've had to kind of learn the hard way, and so I don't want other folks behind me to have to learn the hard way get in on it. Now, working with my team to really understand how to use data and the literature. I think we've hammered the data term home in higher ed, but it's not just your own campus data, it's your system data, it's your state data, it's your national data, and then the research evidence are we again going back to reading articles and keeping up with what's the best interventions and support for whatever populations of students we're working with and then learning how to apply that evidence to the work you do on campus. So outside of my day job, I am also soon to be the incoming Advisory Board Chair for the CSU student success network. Right now, I'm the convenings director, and we just had a convening at the end of the fall about how do you do research to practice, and what are the steps you have to think about, not just in gathering the evidence, but then, how do you build support for this idea that you have? How do you budget support, staff, power, support? And that went really well, and we're going to do some more work. Actually, we're going to have another event in September for the CSU, about now that you've got to got some support, how do you navigate the politics in that? Because when, anytime you're doing change, people hear that I'm doing something bad, it doesn't mean that we're doing something bad. It just means, let's think about this differently, because something has changed, whether that we have more resources or the student population has changed, and how do you navigate that? So we're doing that right now on the CSU student success network in September.

Matt Markin  
Wow. And in addition to that, you also have a connection to like the public library, because most recently, you also got the Hayward Hearts Volunteer Award and recreation for your service, right?

Shonda Goward  
It's one of the most endearing so I'm from Hayward, California. I live in my hometown, and I do volunteer both on the Friends of the Hayward Public Library, and I'm a library Commissioner, and so the library of staff nominated me for their heart of Hayward award for this year or this year. And it just, I can't think of anything else you know, that just makes me smile, because I'm so grateful the library gave me so much as a young person. It's the one place in the public where you can go with no money that in the post office, but there's not a lot you can do in the post office the library, right? I learned to read because I had such fantastic librarians. We had so many programs, and our public library in Hayward does so much from there's a veterans mobile that will help people who are veterans figure out how to turn their resumes into something for private life. We've got something for unhoused people, where there's a shower that comes a few days a week, there's a lawyer in the library, there's a the tutoring and literacy program, and so it's just one of my my big joys is working with the library on So yeah, that's, that's, that's I do for me to maintain my own sanity and not make everything work.

Matt Markin  
That was my last question is like, what do you do for your wellness? You know, we're talking about, you know, a lot of the challenges that are happening at institutions with advisors, and then we're hearing all all these responsibilities that you have just within your own position, but then all the extra committees that that you're on, that you're doing, that aren't part of your actual job you get paid for. But you know this also kind of explains, like in your email signature, about like, when you answer emails.

Shonda Goward  
Yes, my email signature says I will sometimes I'll write emails in the middle of the night. I don't respect expect replies until business hours, but if I don't email in the middle of night. You might not get a response from me. And I have so many they're trying to schedule send. What's going to happen is you're just going to get a bunch the next morning at 8am anyway. So it doesn't it doesn't help. Um, I will tell you I'm completely out of balance right now. I will be completely upfront and honest about that, taking on this role while we're still in the kind of in the midst of the Panasonic and trying to lead this team and pull it together and all the things I want to do. Plus, I've got the Library Commission. I'm still active in my sorority, so I'm on the Social Action Committee. I'm an active Junior leaguer. I've been on the Budget and Finance. Committee. Now I will say one of the reasons why I worked on the Budget and Finance Committee with junior league is because I wanted to learn a new skill, and I wanted to learn about fundraising. So sometimes I use my outside things to learn a new skill that's going to help me in my role at work. But as far as fun, I do try. I have friends. You know, in higher ed, you often move around, so you you have friends all over the country because you move so much, or they've moved and so I'm a points queen, and so I try to maximize my credit cards for points so I can travel for free. So I went to Washington, DC to check on a friend of mine, and that whole trip for a week was free. I did not pay for my hotel room, for my flight, so just trying to travel some and not pay for it. That's my little hobby.

Matt Markin  
Oh, that sounds like that's a cool plan. I need to try. I need to start traveling more. I'm going to contact you for some tips on that.

Shonda Goward  
Happy to share.

Matt Markin  
But to listeners, one thing that has been mentioned among everything else that Shonda does is Shonda is also co chairing the 2024 region nine, and CAL-CAAN conference with Gaby Nuno from Stanislaus. So something extra on your plate there.

Shonda Goward  
We're excited, though. We're excited to have everybody in San Jose. Gaby is a phenomenal human. I enjoy working with her and her ideas from stand up Stan state. So we're excited. And this is not just, yes, I am the official co chair, but my whole campus is going to be involved in this. They already know. And then also gives them a chance to go to a conference, because I can't normally afford one, so they get to come.

Matt Markin  
But this is a lot of a lot of great information that you've shared. So Shonda, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Shonda Goward  
Thank you, Matt, for making such a wonderful space. I appreciate being here.